589
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2024
589 points (88.9% liked)
politics
19198 readers
2483 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Biden may be better than Trump, but the system is fucked to make those the only two options. If he wins, after the election I'm going to actively criticize everything about the Democratic party I can so that we have a chance to get a progressive candidate in 2028. For now I'm giving him a pass so we don't take another step towards fascism. Republicans are going to use absolutely everything they can to squeeze their orange dictator into office.
I mean I'm definitely more on the progressive side and voted for Biden last time and I've still never stopped being critical of him or any other Democrat I voted for. That's how democracy thrives after all.
I don't want and will not settle for becoming like a Republican where I never question or criticize the person I voted for, even if it's Bernie.
That's how it's supposed to happen.
You won't get the option if the other side wins.
Well we've had that option for over three years and for over three years Biden has told us to go fuck ourselves. If that's how the system is supposed to work then the system isn't worth defending for me. I'll leave that to the people who actually benefit from it.
Was it better or worse when states couldn't just outright ban abortion? Would you say women "benefited" from the previous policy?
Man, it sure would have been nice if the Democrats had actually eliminated the filibuster and legislated abortion rights after Roe v Wade, instead of just campaigning on the threat of a GOP majority overturning it somehow. Almost like they didn't actually give a damn about trying to solve that one, and just wanted to look like they cared. They could have had this done and sorted in the first years of Clinton's or Obama's presidencies and chose not to. Let's see how many decades they campaign on swearing that, this time, they're totally going to do something to settle the matter, for real.
I wish it were that simple.
Do you actually believe Dems even had the majority they needed to make it a law even when in power? Dems are not a monolith.
During the first 2 years of Obama's presidency they focused on the economic crisis and healthcare reform. The latter, if you recall, even got fucked up because of one guy costing us the public option.
But none of this changes the fact that on this subject, we had something better before now.
Republicans can get their people in Congress to fall in line, but somehow Democrats always come out with "Gee, that rascally Lieberman/Manchin/Sinema, guess there's nothing we can do" and don't put any effective pressure on these people or get rid of them with someone who don't turn out to just be colorblind Republicans that will sabotage the platform.
Democrats have chances to take action to address these problems and keep tripping over themselves on the same stupid stuff, then try to shout down increasingly disaffected voters with "The other ones are worse than us, vote for us and we won't drop the ball again!"
I remember that sentiment being shared when Manchin was doing some stupid ass thing or another. EVERY time anyone asked those people what EXACTLY they suggested anyone do to him to force him to change, they had no real answer.
I just assume all Republicans have some dirty shit in their past that their party can lean on them with.
Now's your chance. What could Biden or anyone else do to force Manchin to do what he wants?
Gee, I don't know, primary him with someone that actually delivers on stuff and doesn't hold things hostage on a power trip and back the hell out of that candidate? Tell him that if he doesn't get in line, they'll actively block his future attempts at getting some pork barrel spending pushed through for WV? Literally anything besides throwing up their hands and saying "We've tried nothing and it didn't work, guess that's it. We just have to deal with this guy until he retires, I guess." would have been a great start.
This whole fucking post is about how we're kind of stuck with the least bad of 2 bad options because of our voting system and you just suggested running someone against a Dem which would risk getting a Republican elected.... On top of expecting a more progressive candidate to win in West Fucking Virginia.
Maybe? This is so milquetoast though and I'd be surprised if it hasn't already happened.
Well, doing absolutely nothing about him and similar candidates has turned out so well for them, hasn't it? This is the sort of garbage justification that has voters increasingly disillusioned with the Democratic party. We're supposed to believe they'll actually deliver on any of the much more difficult parts of their platform with Republican opposition that will be much worse when they can't even get an idiot like Manchin or Sinema to fall in line when it actually matters, and can't do anything about it? Like, that was supposed to be the whole deal with Manchin to begin with, that we accept he'll push back on things a bit, but he'll fall in with the party when it counts. How's that played out lately?
If this is the best strategy the Democrats could cobble together, they may as well just quit politics, hand the reins over to the christofascists and stop pretending at this point.
I'd invite you to zoom out a little bit.
You know who wasn't affected by the abortion ban? Anybody with enough money to move or travel. While they've got you distracted with what they're giving you permission to do you're letting them take away your ability to simply walk away.
Far more people have been harmed by the suppression of wages than any specific policy you can think of and it crosses over race, gender and age. Procorporatism is at the root of what's killing us and Democrats are right there with Republicans making it happen.
"I've got the means and time to travel hundreds of miles if I need an abortion and I'm not that bothered that many don't."
Got it...
Whether or not the abortion ban affects me directly doesn't change the fact: Everybody is affected by wage suppression.
This is a very fair approach. Stop Fascism now, then right after the vote is won, start pushing the party Left.
I will almost certainly be voting for Biden, but why on Earth do you think we can push the DNC to the left? "Stop fascism now, then right after the vote is won, start pushing the party Left" has been the calling action for progressives and leftists for decades and the US has gotten more right-wing with time.
Why is this time any different? Is it finally time to realize that you cannot vote the DNC to the left at the scale required to make actual change?
With FPTP voting you literally don't have a choice. Push for voting reforms first
We can't even ditch the electoral college that regularly thumbs its nose at the popular vote, how do you think we'll get ranked choice to become the federal norm in 4 years?
Looking at the past 40ish years, no party has ever held the presidential office for two consecutive candidates (not terms, candidates), so we're pretty much guaranteed a Republican president in 2028 even if Biden wins 2024. And even though Trump will be rotting in a prison (or grave) by then, the Republican candidate will be just as evil, if maybe more eloquent about it.
That's not the question I asked, haha. Voting reform would be nice, of course, but that doesn't mean it will happen. That's pure idealism. Voting reform has been pushed for for decades, how do you plan on actually getting voting reform through? Waiting for candidates to magically appear in the DNC and not just third party, and vote for them?
If you don't get voting reform through, you don't have much leverage at all for much else.
I asked how you're getting it through, are you just saying the answer is to wait for the DNC to get around to it? Because I really hope that isn't what you're saying.
How are you getting anything else through? If you can push them to make any changes at all, this one should have top priority
I don't believe you can, which is why I support grassroots organizing. Strike funds, mutual aid, that kinda stuff. The state will not be reformed in a manner that gives workers a meaninful voice, only mild concessions, unless there is massive outside pressure.
This is what happened in 2020.
The party refused to move left. I won't be suckered into giving up my vote for a procorporate piece of shit again. If Biden wants my vote he'll fucking work for it.
Then please go vote in primaries, midterms, and local elections. That's how you get the party to move. People complain about their elected officials but only vote once every four years.
Yes we complain because there was no excuse to vote for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries. There were much better options.
The party has no interest in moving. Thus I have no interest in voting for their trash candidates.
Have you considered that leftists have simply done a poor job of working for moderates' votes?
This is a two way street. Progressives don't get moderate votes for granted either, and I say that as a progressive. Perhaps part of the reason why progressives have struggled is because the loud minority would rather talk shit on everyone else instead trying to convince them.
Have you considered moderates and liberals have no interest in moving left and will continue to expect our votes while making no material compromises?
I'm fine with this if that's what you want. Get Biden re-elected without us. If you fail take full responsibility.
Do you actually care about progressive causes, or do you just want to be right and win one over against the moderates and centrists, yell at them and feel good about yourself?
Lol are you worried we feel good about ourselves? Suicide rates are at record highs. Don't you worry about us feeling good. We don't.
That doesn't change facts though. Moderates, centerists, liberals or whatever else they want to call themselves are the majority of the party. Millions of them voted for Joe Biden in the 2020 primaries over the numerous better options. We are all in this position because of their decisions. They are responsible for what's happening.
I agree that we need more than 3 choices, but I disagree with you on being more progressive. Biden has been the most progressive democrat that I could remember.
You can't remember Bernie?
Ya, I voted for him. I mean, some of the things Biden is doing is straight out of Bernie's playbook. Student loan forgiveness. Prescription drug caps.