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this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2024
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They are not defending him, they just disagree with your view specifically that he is personally responsible for this and you are conflating that to be defending him. You are perhaps not technically wrong that Joe can just end this, but Joe Biden doesn't exist in a vacuum, and neither does the war in Gaza. The US dropping Israel like a brick might do more harm than good on the long term:
Kamala could align her position more with the people once she's in office. And if future elections produce a more reasonable candidate on the other side (lol), you could actually punish them for it with your vote if they don't. But right now, supporting Israel is what is seemingly the safest option for a candidate. The fact that is the answer they settled on shows there are underlying reasons that out-weigh just dropping Israel, and if you want to make an actual change, those underlying reasons are the ones you have to put to rest before things can change. Or... you can refuse to look at actual solutions, and just accuse people because they don't believe in your absolutist stance which has a near zero chance to actually change anything.
You should be trying to change minds so that the pressure from people might actually make them reconsider their options. And by calling people who don't immediately agree with you as being pro genocide, they're going to equate being anti genocide with your position, and they're going to see anyone holding the position as being naive. Even though it clearly isn't, but you've wasted the first impression they could have had to change their mind. It will not make people who don't yet understand the issue side with you to actually make a change. Now every attempt after that is going to be harder and harder. And so their stance remains ever in the direction of supporting Isreal. And leadership will once more have to appeal to that side.
This conversation is not about Kamala, we are talking about Biden remember?
Excuse me? It's fucking Israel that is trying to start all out war with the shit they keep doing, Iran's responses have only been reserved and reasonable by comparison
With who? Germany, I guess? I doubt it. Europe is the US's playground, whatever the US wants they'll either support it or quietly stand aside.
But, also? Support for this genocide is already hurting diplomatic relationships. Turkey and Egypt in particular are under a lot of domestic pressure from this war, when Israel starts a regional conflict it's only going to burn more of those bridges. There are limits to how far we can support Israel before other Middle East allies turn against the US.
Yes, this is entirely true. We support Israel as our unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, we need it to control that route for trade and migration and oil resources.
I doubt realpolitik is a big factor on voter's minds, though. The most ardent supporters of Israel are going to vote for Trump anyway. Appealing to them is bad politics.
If you cannot see that Kamala's campaign is still inherently tied to Joe Biden's campaign and his current presidency, I don't know what to tell you. He is still the president, and she is his vice president, and his policies inform people about hers.
Are you forgetting that Iran is a militant Sharia state that clearly has more than a few human right violations under their belt? They are not the good guys either. You're right, Israel is trying to provoke shit, and they rightfully should be punished for doing so. But that's sadly irrelevant, If the US drops Israel, this will cause a massive power vacuum on Israels part, and it's very likely that we will go from a war not between Israel and the Palestinians, but war to a war in all of the middle east. A magnitude larger in human suffering. If you want to stop genocide, that doesn't sound like the thing you want.
Ehh, I'm not even sure where you get this from. The EU will not just blindly support what the US wants, but we are very aligned diplomatically. In the EU there is sadly a similar struggle for different reasons.
But it does make your position a little bit more understandable if you truly think the US is somehow the leader of everyone else they are good diplomatic partners with. Fortunately, that is not the case. To answer the question, no, I was referring in part to Taiwan and Ukraine, but also allies with whom a larger majority supports Isreal, or those that have agreements with the US that hang on their stance.
Yes. And yet, that's not enough of a reason. Taking either position has negatives. And yes, there are limits to the support the US can take, but clearly and unfortunately where they're currently at, they haven't crossed that line.
And here is your fatal flaw. If this was actually the case, it would be unfathomable for a Democrat to hold this position, yet it's not. It's an uncomfortable truth, I'm sure. But not everyone has the same experiences as you do. Nor as your friends, nor as the people in your town, nor as the people in your state. You saw what happened to Joe Biden when his mental decline clearly became a reason to urge him out of the race. When the pressure is there, it's hard to ignore. But sadly the truth is that his stance on Gaza wasn't what caused him to drop out, and no significant pressure has even manifested.
I don't think people connect her with Biden's genocide. Yes, she is complicit because there are things she could be doing to remove Biden from office, but most people don't see the Vice President as actually all that important in deciding policy. I do not think attacking Biden on this issue hurts her at all, and that's why she's going to win.
Attacking Biden is, in fact, a good way to pressure Harris without hurting her chances at winning. He's a fair target and it should be open season on his evil ancient ass.
Whenever they've retaliated in the past it's always been very conservative and measured because they don't want a regional war either. They understand that a regional war wouldn't save Palestinian lives and would be extremely costly for everyone in the region, they're not the problem here. Israel is the only actor trying to start more wars at this moment and you need to recognize that, rather than scaring yourself with Iranian boogeymen. Israel is the problem and Israel must be stopped, or war is inevitable.
There's still several months until the election. It can, and will, continue to get worse. I don't think we should find out where the breaking point is.
The uncommitted movement is a powerful force in swing states and donors know this - Biden being old is only part of the reason he was forced to drop out.
It's like I said, I think Harris is going to be just fine. Dems believe, probably correctly, that Biden is a lightning rod that will distract voters away from Harris's record on Israel and allow them to win this November. If they're right, we can voice opposition to Biden's racist genocidal policies without helping Trump win. We can't afford to be silent.
So now that he's out of the race there's literally no reason to hold back. At this point support for Biden is 100% just support for genocide.
Sure, I can see the logic in that. I do think it will affect her and people are kind of expecting her to have the same stance as Biden even if he changes it. Unless she comes out to denounce it, which I highly doubt she will. But we can disagree on that and criticizing Biden for that is totally fine.
I mean, we're having this conversation because you insisted Joe Biden was the issue. It has always been my stance that Israel is the problem, and kind of abusing the good will of the populations that supported them. So I'm glad to hear you seem to agree on that. But I do think you are giving Iran too much credit, they are not a boogeyman, which would imply they are actually harmless. They are a legitimately evil autocracy that does not care for people more than Israel does. Iran will definitely take the chance if the US would drop support for Israel. It is because of Israels support in large part from the US that they have not made rash moves, because they too have to balance their pushback on Israel and invoking a response from the US and allies.
I don't think you should either. But I'm not so sure it's set in stone if it will. We're living in turbulent times.
Swing voters are pretty much by definition leaning more towards the Republicans than non-swing Democrats. And we just sort of agreed that Republicans are more in favor of supporting Israel. So I don't think it's very unreasonable to say these swing voters are more likely to support Israel than Democrats. More evidence of that is the fact I don't think Kamala has spoken prominently once of Gaza since she became the presumptive and eventual candidate. Which she definitely would highlight if that would make her more favorable with swing voters. But there are seemingly more important issues that she's addressing first, if she will even discuss Israel at all.
I agree. Biden can be a lightning rod for criticism instead of Kamala. But again, I don't think anyone is really supporting Joe Biden that way anymore. I certainly haven't seen such sentiment from the people you accused of being pro genocide. Support is very different from rejecting what they perceive to be inaccuracies or mischaracterizations. And the two shouldn't be confused, nor easily determined if you're going to assign the label 'pro genocide' to them afterwards. If you want to actually change things, attacking people will not make people with opposing views change their mind, and reasonable allies will abandon you. Even if you are right, you still need to convince people who think you are wrong. And assuming they must hold that position because they are pro genocide is just massively slashing your own tires.
Well, no, I insist that public support for Biden is the issue. Biden couldn't do this alone. The real problem is that people fanatically support him despite his genocidal policies, which only ensures the genocide continues. What can I call that but pro-genocide?
And I do not buy into the idea that Israel is somehow a rogue agent that just keeps getting away with war crimes. Israel could not do what it is doing without US support, and the US would not do what it is doing if the masses stood up and demanded the genocide be stopped. We really do have the power to change things.
You seem convinced that nothing we can do can change anything. Deeply deeply cynical.
That might be true! Even if that's the case, I don't see why the US couldn't strike a balance - stop arming Israel but also continue to pledge a response if Israel is attacked.
There's a lot more the US could do after that (arrest Israel's war criminals and seize their weapons and dismantle their apartheid system and empty their political prisons) but that's all pretty unrealistic to expect from the US and I recognize that. But! An arms embargo is, I think, a demand we can make of our leaders and I think we have a duty to try.
And, because Democrats think the key to winning elections to to appeal to Republican-leaning swing voters, they constantly move to the right on foreign policy and immigration and trade etc. etc. I'm skeptical that swing voters are necessarily the key to winning! I still believe there's a vast sea of untapped voting potential of people who hate both parties, but that a militant anti-genocide policy would draw them back into the voting process. Half the country doesn't vote. Win their support and you can never lose.
You're contradicting yourself. Does Biden have the support of right-leaning swing voters, or does not one support him anymore?
All I said was that Biden still supports genocide and that supporting Biden is pro-genocide, and this triggered a vicious wave of personal attacks and dehumanization by dozens of people. But, I don't see how this is controversial. There's literally no reason at all to continue to support Biden! We're free to attack him as much as we want!
And yet? By calling out his genocide I have been told I am a MAGA Trump supporter (I'm trans, he and his cult are literally going to kill me), I have been told I am not taking this conversation seriously, I have been called a bot over and over, I have been told that it's actually me that doesn't care about genocide, and I've been fed endless snide sarcasm from people who seem to think I am stupid. Go look at what I've said and how I've been treated. This doesn't look like people who are rejecting inaccuracies or mischaracterizations, this looks like a hate mob of Biden supporters who fucking hate me for holding Biden responsible for his support for genocide.
And if I wanted to actually change things I would log off and do something productive with my time. No one will ever be convinced by anyone arguing with them on the internet, and that was true before bots became good enough to fool people. I just have a horrible sickness that causes me to argue with people until I cry and hurt myself lol
I was here since the start before any such messages appeared, so you're not fooling me. You started out with "He's still doing genocide y'all". An inaccurate and laden statement which you rightfully got a critical responses for, not because people support the policy. You followed this up by calling your critics pro-genocide, regardless of their actual position. I'm sorry, but you don't exist out of context either, so yeah, people are kind of not going to like you in this thread. It's why you don't attack people out of the gate, I warned you about that in my very first message. Hostility often creates more hostility. I don't necessarily condone that, but you have thrown a little too much dirt to be surprised about being dirty.
We haven't even discussed whether or not I think we can do anything about it, yet you call me deeply cynical for a position I don't hold. I do think more people in the US should be against the support for Israel. I do think the support makes Israel emboldened to commit genocide. I do think people can be convinced. But as I was trying to explain to you, I understand that other people look at different aspects and have different experiences to where they can be unaware of Israels atrocities, or are indeed willing to look away. And often those people are sadly needed for a majority that has chances of actually stopping the genocide. So they must be convinced to get the end result I desire, no more genocide.
It should be obvious that anyone you ask if genocide is okay, they will say no. But people can have irrational and conflicting beliefs, and to actually make them change their mind the worst you can do is to effectively say "you are a terrible person", even if it's effectively true. Because if they've rationalized themselves to accept supporting Israel, being called a terrible person only emboldens that rationalization. There exists no magic incantation that will change this. (And it should be said, calling the people who very well might share your opinion on all but your questionable remarks, makes you look really bad)
If you think you can get 50% of the votes in the US, I really urge you to start a party right now. Because by that logic both Democrats and Republicans could only hold 25% of the vote, so you could win in a landslide victory with the remaining 50%. But I think we both know that will not happen. But according to the data, ~66% voted in the last election. 34% is still enough for a victory, but that's a tall order.
I want you to understand that I'm talking to you because I want you to be effective at getting your message across. Having commendable opinions but being terribly self destructive in ways of expressing them is so incredibly wasteful and will at worst create more support for the thing you are rallying against. Clearly you have the vigor to stand up for what your opinion is, but actually changing things means taking on constructive, calm and respectful dialogue, and doing what's effective over what perhaps more morally clean in the short term, but because you didn't actually change anything, morally dubious in the long term.
He is doing genocide! J'Accuse...! The US's unlimited support for Israel is the only reason the Zionist entity can keep doing what it has been doing, you can't deny that Biden is 100% fucking responsible here and. The US is materially and geopolitically and financially responsible for this genocide and he is protecting his co-genocidiers from any accountability with the ICJ or ICC or UN. You don't get to pretend he isn't doing genocide just because he isn't personally flying the bombers or personally running people over.
If you refuse to call that out? If you refuse to stand up against genocide and the genocidiers carrying it out?
Then your silence is support. Your silence is violence. Your tax money and your labor are already being used to carry out this genocide, so if you don't do the bare fucking minimum and speak out against it you are a genocide supporter. This thread, filled with people who refuse to condemn Biden or blame him for the genocide, is (in a very small way, admittedly) literally supporting Biden's ability to do genocide. Our voices join the chorus of all voices of the electorate, so what we say about Biden and his genocide really does matter! We are not powerless, we can force Biden to stop this genocide if we have the courage to actually blame him for it and call him out.
If you won't even lift a finger or raise a whisper against the genocide you are materially supporting with your money and labor, you are de facto a genocide supporter.
And yes, pointing out the truth pissed people off! They don't like their complicity being rubbed in their faces because they don't like being genocide supporters. I understand that! They don't really want their tax dollars or labor to go towards genocide. And yet, they refuse to do literally fucking anything to try to stop it, not even say anything bad about the guy doing the genocide, so that means in every way it matters they literally are genocide supporters.
If they united their voices against Biden and his genocide the genocide would end. We don't get to wash our hands of this.
🙄
Only one of the two parties can win, c'mon, you know they have the whole thing rigged right?
Okay. Here is my message.
Biden is doing genocide.
supporting Biden = supporting genocide
We can force this genocide to stop, and that starts with raising our voices against it. It isn't hopeless.
I think people have no hope. They believe there's literally nothing anyone can do to affect political change besides vote every few years, and that they can't change anything by voting either and so voting is just a way to stop Republicans from making everything worse. I don't think they want to support genocide, they just don't see any other choice.
Alright, don't say I didn't try. Good luck trying to convince people on a message that far more people disagree with than agree. And on a point that's at the end of the day irrelevant to actually reducing genocide, even if you do convince them Joe Biden is somehow personally responsible.
You don't know me, nor what I have done to try and change things, yet you think because I don't want to accept your inaccurate beliefs that I'm somehow supporting genocide with that. Good luck trying to make anything but enemies with that mentality. I don't even work for the US or pay taxes there, and I proudly support efforts in my country to stop funding Israel. My hands are clean when it comes to the money US puts into Israel, yet even I can see what you're trying to peddle is incorrect.
By your own logic, you are doing genocide yourself. Because you are not personally flying the planes, but you are funding Joe Biden through your tax dollars, who funds Israel, who pays the pilots that fly the planes. You are also supporting the Uyghur genocide because you can't get around buying Chinese made products that fund the CCP either. You are also most likely supporting child labor because you basically can't get around products produced by child labour in Africa and South East Asia.
If you're going to take that stance, pretty much everyone is a fucking horrible person. Which is why it's stupid, because clearly people struggle with these things. You can fight against those things while still being forced to participate in them. Joe Biden definitely has more say in the matter than the average person, but he too is held back by factors which he can't get around, which we talked about in grand detail. Who doesn't have those constraints? Israel. The people who have the final say over the money and decide to commit war crimes with them instead of what the money is intended for. Is Joe Biden complicit in his weak response to Israel? Yes. But it doesn't make him personally responsible because he's just a figurehead that has certain responsibilities to his base and his country, which he too can't get around. And Kamala will also inherit that if she takes office.
It was you who claimed 50% of the votes were untapped. Now you're saying it's rigged anyways. It almost sounds like you don't have any hope to change things, which you are readily accusing others of. Could it be that you are starting to recognize that there are barriers in place to get people to stop supporting genocide?
As long as you keep including #1 (and to a certain extent #2) and militantly defend that position rather than understand the other person's point of view, you will not change their mind. Even if there is a large majority perfectly willing to agree and fight for #3, and people that are undecided who could be convinced of #3, but not #1 and #2. As such, you are weakening the position to actually change #3. Even doing nothing would be better.
And yes, by that logic, that makes you a force for genocide, even if your actual opinion is anti-genocide. Actions speak louder than words, and your actions make people more likely to side with genocide because you're making them irrationally resistant to your ideas, because you package the reasonable stance of stopping genocide with the unreasonable stance of assigning full responsibility to a not necessarily innocent, but still indirectly involved person.
As I said, my goal was to help you relax your stance so you can be a force against genocide, because I actually want to stop genocide, and so having more people effectively stop the genocide is what I want. But I have seemingly failed with you. Now every person you get to who is undecided, someone else will have to undo in their mind that they don't mean your position, but a reasonable one. You have made it harder to convince them to drop their support for genocide, and even harder to get them to stand up against it. This will be my last response, and I hope you reflect on our conversation. We want the same thing, at the end of the day.