this post was submitted on 12 Apr 2025
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[–] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 6 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You hate western capitalism and eastern socialism with Chinese characteristics. Are you an anarchist? What do you mean by “pure propaganda”

[–] ObtuseDoorFrame@lemm.ee 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

Ugh.

I've learned never to comment on Chinese subs ever again. Y'all keep calling me a "lib" and putting words in my mouth. I do NOT hate "eastern socialism with Chinese characteristics" what the actual fuck are you talking about?

I called it propaganda because it didn't answer my question and spent its entire time talking up China. It was evasive and had an agenda. Just like, you know, propaganda.

[–] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 10 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

It did answer your question, you are too entrenched in the american supremacist mindset to see the answers. Might as well block hexbear entirely if you can't deal with paragraphs of text answering your questions.

How was this propaganda?

"What makes a country "socialist"?

A society where public ownership of the means of production, a state controlled by a politically organized proletariat, and production for societal use rather than for profit is the principal aspect (main body) of the economy.

Key term here is principal aspect. There is a weird phenomenon from both anti-communists as well as a lot of ultraleft and leftcom communists themselves of applying a "one drop rule" to socialism, where socialism is only socialism if it's absolutely pure without a single internal contradiction. But no society in the history of humankind has been pure, they all contain internal contradictions and internal contradictions are necessary for one form of society to develop into the next.

If you applied that same logic to capitalism, then if there was any economic planning or public ownership, then capitalism would cease to be "true capitalism" and become "actually socialism", which is an argument a lot of right-wing libertarians unironically make. The whole "not true capitalism" and "not true socialism" arguments are two sides of the same coin, that is, people weirdly applying an absolute purity standard to a particular economic system which is fundamentally impossible to exist in reality, so they then can declare their preferred system "has never truly been tried". But it will never be tried ever because it's an idealized form which cannot exist in concrete reality, actually-existing capitalism and socialism will always have internal contradictions within itself.

If no idealized form exists and all things contain internal contradictions within themselves, then the only way to define them in a consistent way is not to define them in terms of perfectly and purely matching up to that idealized form, but that description merely becoming the principal aspect in a society filled with other forms and internal contradictions within itself.

A capitalist society introducing some economic planning and public ownership doesn't make it socialist because the principal aspect is still bourgeois rule and production for profit. This would mean the state and institutions carrying out the economic planning would be most influenced by the bourgeoisie and not by the working class, i.e. they would still behave somewhat privately, the "public ownership" would really be bourgeois ownership and the economic planning would be for the benefit of the bourgeoisie first and foremost.

A similar story in a socialist society with markets and private ownership. If you have a society dominated by public ownership and someone decides to open a shop, where do they get the land, the raw materials, permission for that shop, etc? If they get everything from the public sector, then they exist purely by the explicit approval by the public sector, they don't have real autonomy. The business may be internally run privately but would be forced to fit into the public plan due to everything around them demanding it for their survival.

Whatever is the dominant aspect of society will shape the subordinated forms. You have to understand societies as all containing internal contradictions and seeking for what is the dominant form in that society that shapes subordinated forms, rather than through an abstract and impossible to realize idealized version of "true socialism".

Countries like Norway may have things that seemingly contradict capitalism like large social safety nets for workers funded by large amounts of public ownership, but these came as concessions due to the proximity of Nordic countries to the USSR which pressured the bourgeoisie to make concessions with the working class. However, the working class and public ownership and economic planning never became the principal aspect of Norway. The bourgeoisie still remains in control, arguably with a weaker position, but they are still by principal aspect, and in many Nordic countries ever since the dissolution of the USSR, the bourgeoisie has been using that dominant position to roll back concessions.

The argument for China being socialist is not that China has fully achieved some pure, idealized form of socialism, but that China is a DOTP (dictatorship of the proletariat) where public ownership alongside the CPC's Five-Year plans remain the principal aspect of the economy and other economic organization is a subordinated form."

[–] ObtuseDoorFrame@lemm.ee -1 points 5 days ago (4 children)

That was a good read, thanks for taking the time. The propaganda I was referring to was mostly the paragraphs focusing on talking up Xi. He's a fairly brutal dictator. While China does get a lot right, and I admire socialist countries very much, I'm suspicious of anything that talks up a dictator.

Norway is an interesting example and I'd like to see its policies in the USA. Capitalism will always devour itself given enough time, especially with a lack of regulation. Strong social programs are a requirement to make it work.

[–] hello_hello@hexbear.net 5 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

He's a fairly brutal dictator...I'm suspicious of anything that talks up a dictator.

Xi Jinping is not a dictator, he was elected into his position and his legitimacy comes from the outcomes of his policy and leadership. He has been in politics for nearly his entire life and rose through the ranks by being an excellent party cadre. I'm assuming you only view him as a dictator because you've been trained to do so by western press.

The elimination of term limits doesn't inherently lessen democratic power nor does its presence automatically increase it. Only material outcomes determine whether a system is democratic or not, just to get that out of the way.

Let me frame it like this: a person without shelter, who can't pay for food and medicine, or a myriad of other concerns does not have the same level of human rights as those that can, this can't be objected to without admitting that western notions of human rights are not based in reality but idealism. China works on raising the standard of living for the majority, not appeasing an ideology. Those living in China have more human rights than those living in western countries if we measure human rights based on quality of life and not on personal feelings.

Let me break it down even further: China would arrest and jail anyone spreading antivax lies while the US makes them the head of the health department (RFK Jr). Decide which society is more free.

[–] ObtuseDoorFrame@lemm.ee 2 points 4 days ago

If this is true then it's true what I've heard: Americans really are the most propagandized people in the world.

[–] ObtuseDoorFrame@lemm.ee 1 points 4 days ago

I don't have the energy to respond to this in a meaningful way but I appreciate you taking the time to type it out.

[–] corvidenjoyer@hexbear.net 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

What exactly are your personal politics?

[–] ObtuseDoorFrame@lemm.ee 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

If I had to put a title on it, I would use a term I first heard being used by Bernie Sanders: a democratic socialist. I think that human nature makes both capitalism and communism doomed to fail. Somewhere in the middle is where the sweet spot is. A capitalistic base with strong social safety nets, plenty of public land, universal healthcare, free college, and a universal basic income would be the best path for a country to take. Society should be flexible enough to adapt to the needs of all its citizens, and both capitalism and communism fail at achieving that. So, we should take the best of both.

People should be able to work harder, with longer hours and earn more as a result of their work if they so choose. But people should also be able to work as little as they like (with a minimum of 20ish hours a week) and still be able to live a full life, albeit with fewer possessions than the hard worker will be able to afford. I believe democratic socialism is the only system that could give both of these workers what they want.

I also believe in social freedoms like freedom of speech and sexuality, which are things that China doesn't have and the USA might lose.

[–] SloppilyFloss@lemmy.ml 5 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

If I had to put a title on it, I would use a term I first heard being used by Bernie Sanders: a democratic socialist. I think that human nature makes both capitalism and communism doomed to fail. Somewhere in the middle is where the sweet spot is. A capitalistic base with strong social safety nets, plenty of public land, universal healthcare, free college, and a universal basic income would be the best path for a country to take. Society should be flexible enough to adapt to the needs of all its citizens, and both capitalism and communism fail at achieving that. So, we should take the best of both.

You're a Kautskyist. You reject the class struggle and engage in class collaborationism. Your understanding of the world was debunked over 100 years ago by Lenin and every day since by the winds of history.

[–] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 3 points 5 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

It was sent to you yesterday! https://hexbear.net/comment/6049942

Apologies for coming off aggressive. Capitalism can not be restrained without a dedicated communist party, like China's. Executing billionaires for defrauding the people is framed as authoritarian overreach but in reality good. Also, the chinese system is not one man, even the head. There are liberals and conservatives (more hardline socialists in the Chinese context), cliques and ingroups, just mostly under the banner of one party. There may be more democracy than you think https://www.cgtn.com/how-china-works/feature/Why-China-s-socialist-democracy-is-the-most-effective-democracy.html https://ash.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/final_policy_brief_7.6.2020.pdf

The above harvard study also explains why there has been poverty and wealth inequality in the PRC after 1990 on page 5. Compare the stories of 2000s and early-mid 2010s with the achievements and goals now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuaJGPZCBYU&t=1s

On the other hand, Scandinavia has already started to roll back whatever social democratic compromises were made during the cold war https://jacobin.com/2024/04/sweden-unions-exploitation-migrant-solidarity, including the social freedoms I believe you mentioned in another comment https://jacobin.com/2024/07/swedish-social-democracy-kjell-ostberg. Without a material basis of prosperity and some wealth redistribution, there is no room for countries who have been colonized to develop social freedoms in the first place. How can a country in africa abolish patriarchal systems of authority without the money to feed its people or defend itself from western backed militants? https://www.lemonde.fr/en/le-monde-africa/article/2024/10/13/ukrainian-drones-provide-support-for-northern-mali-s-rebels_6729231_124.html. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/8/20/ukraine-is-losing-the-plot-in-africa

Countries like Norway can benefit from their place in an imperialist world order to sell weapons https://oec.world/en/profile/bilateral-product/military-weapons/reporter/nor and use their fossil fuel reserves to temporarily create a liberal saudi arabia that crumbles the second a few Syrians migrate from more wars caused by the western world order. Plenty of people have critiques of the Chinese socialist project on hexbear, the influence of the Shanghai clique, the amount of debt they hold in the Global South, @xiaohongshu@hexbear.net / @xiaohongshu2@hexbear.net has made some great posts about finance and economics specifically. But we also hold dearly to the maxim "No investigation, no right to speak"

[–] ObtuseDoorFrame@lemm.ee 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I didn't see it yesterday. I was jumped on and ridiculed and just... sort of checked out and didn't read anything after that. I clearly don't have nearly as much knowledge on these subjects and most people aren't as patient as you.

I will try to reduce my ignorance and learn about this. It's mostly just for the pursuit of knowledge as I am unfortunately stuck in a collapsing United States and it's unlikely I'll ever be able to live in a socialist country.

[–] bbnh69420@hexbear.net 2 points 4 days ago

I'm in the same difficult boat. It really is easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism. Solidarity comrade, we'll fight the barbarism together.

[–] HexReplyBot@hexbear.net 1 points 5 days ago

I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:

[–] john_brown@hexbear.net 3 points 5 days ago

He's a fairly brutal dictator.

citations-needed