this post was submitted on 12 Apr 2025
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sino
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Ugh.
I've learned never to comment on Chinese subs ever again. Y'all keep calling me a "lib" and putting words in my mouth. I do NOT hate "eastern socialism with Chinese characteristics" what the actual fuck are you talking about?
I called it propaganda because it didn't answer my question and spent its entire time talking up China. It was evasive and had an agenda. Just like, you know, propaganda.
It did answer your question, you are too entrenched in the american supremacist mindset to see the answers. Might as well block hexbear entirely if you can't deal with paragraphs of text answering your questions.
How was this propaganda?
"What makes a country "socialist"?
A society where public ownership of the means of production, a state controlled by a politically organized proletariat, and production for societal use rather than for profit is the principal aspect (main body) of the economy.
Key term here is principal aspect. There is a weird phenomenon from both anti-communists as well as a lot of ultraleft and leftcom communists themselves of applying a "one drop rule" to socialism, where socialism is only socialism if it's absolutely pure without a single internal contradiction. But no society in the history of humankind has been pure, they all contain internal contradictions and internal contradictions are necessary for one form of society to develop into the next.
If you applied that same logic to capitalism, then if there was any economic planning or public ownership, then capitalism would cease to be "true capitalism" and become "actually socialism", which is an argument a lot of right-wing libertarians unironically make. The whole "not true capitalism" and "not true socialism" arguments are two sides of the same coin, that is, people weirdly applying an absolute purity standard to a particular economic system which is fundamentally impossible to exist in reality, so they then can declare their preferred system "has never truly been tried". But it will never be tried ever because it's an idealized form which cannot exist in concrete reality, actually-existing capitalism and socialism will always have internal contradictions within itself.
If no idealized form exists and all things contain internal contradictions within themselves, then the only way to define them in a consistent way is not to define them in terms of perfectly and purely matching up to that idealized form, but that description merely becoming the principal aspect in a society filled with other forms and internal contradictions within itself.
A capitalist society introducing some economic planning and public ownership doesn't make it socialist because the principal aspect is still bourgeois rule and production for profit. This would mean the state and institutions carrying out the economic planning would be most influenced by the bourgeoisie and not by the working class, i.e. they would still behave somewhat privately, the "public ownership" would really be bourgeois ownership and the economic planning would be for the benefit of the bourgeoisie first and foremost.
A similar story in a socialist society with markets and private ownership. If you have a society dominated by public ownership and someone decides to open a shop, where do they get the land, the raw materials, permission for that shop, etc? If they get everything from the public sector, then they exist purely by the explicit approval by the public sector, they don't have real autonomy. The business may be internally run privately but would be forced to fit into the public plan due to everything around them demanding it for their survival.
Whatever is the dominant aspect of society will shape the subordinated forms. You have to understand societies as all containing internal contradictions and seeking for what is the dominant form in that society that shapes subordinated forms, rather than through an abstract and impossible to realize idealized version of "true socialism".
Countries like Norway may have things that seemingly contradict capitalism like large social safety nets for workers funded by large amounts of public ownership, but these came as concessions due to the proximity of Nordic countries to the USSR which pressured the bourgeoisie to make concessions with the working class. However, the working class and public ownership and economic planning never became the principal aspect of Norway. The bourgeoisie still remains in control, arguably with a weaker position, but they are still by principal aspect, and in many Nordic countries ever since the dissolution of the USSR, the bourgeoisie has been using that dominant position to roll back concessions.
The argument for China being socialist is not that China has fully achieved some pure, idealized form of socialism, but that China is a DOTP (dictatorship of the proletariat) where public ownership alongside the CPC's Five-Year plans remain the principal aspect of the economy and other economic organization is a subordinated form."
That was a good read, thanks for taking the time. The propaganda I was referring to was mostly the paragraphs focusing on talking up Xi. He's a fairly brutal dictator. While China does get a lot right, and I admire socialist countries very much, I'm suspicious of anything that talks up a dictator.
Norway is an interesting example and I'd like to see its policies in the USA. Capitalism will always devour itself given enough time, especially with a lack of regulation. Strong social programs are a requirement to make it work.
What exactly are your personal politics?
If I had to put a title on it, I would use a term I first heard being used by Bernie Sanders: a democratic socialist. I think that human nature makes both capitalism and communism doomed to fail. Somewhere in the middle is where the sweet spot is. A capitalistic base with strong social safety nets, plenty of public land, universal healthcare, free college, and a universal basic income would be the best path for a country to take. Society should be flexible enough to adapt to the needs of all its citizens, and both capitalism and communism fail at achieving that. So, we should take the best of both.
People should be able to work harder, with longer hours and earn more as a result of their work if they so choose. But people should also be able to work as little as they like (with a minimum of 20ish hours a week) and still be able to live a full life, albeit with fewer possessions than the hard worker will be able to afford. I believe democratic socialism is the only system that could give both of these workers what they want.
I also believe in social freedoms like freedom of speech and sexuality, which are things that China doesn't have and the USA might lose.
You're a Kautskyist. You reject the class struggle and engage in class collaborationism. Your understanding of the world was debunked over 100 years ago by Lenin and every day since by the winds of history.
Be as patronizing as you'd like, but your strain of thought has been proven wrong and inadequate by philosophers, not even just Marxist ones, for over a century at this point. Do some reading.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1918/prrk/
The idea that a system has been "debunked" is absurd. Things work out based on a myriad of factors and might work in other circumstances.
I deleted my comment because I was worried it would be as patronizing as yours.
Edit: still I appreciate the link and will try to read it.
I should've been less patronizing, sorry. If you appreciate the link and will read it then you're more open to this than 99% of people that tend to argue about all this so I'll respect you for that. Hope you enjoy the read 🫡
But to posit that you have to lay out how America differs from Russia, no?