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submitted 1 year ago by sunaurus@lemm.ee to c/meta@lemm.ee

Hey folks

I have been receiving a lot of messages every single day about federation with hexbear. Some of our users are vehemently against it, others are in full support. The conversation does not seem to be dying down, rather, the volume of messages I receive about it seems to be increasing, so I am opening this public space where we can openly discuss the topic.

I am going to write a wall of text about my own thoughts on the situation, I’m sorry, but no tl;dr this time, and I ask anybody participating in this thread to first read through this post before commenting.

Before I go any further, I want to be clear that for anybody who participates here, it is required to focus on the quality of your posts. That means:

  • Be kind to each other, even if you disagree
  • Use arguments rather than calling people names
  • Realize that this is a divisive topic, so your comments should be even more thoughtful than usual

With that out of the way, there are a few things I want to cover.

On defederation in general

First of all, I am a firm believer that defederation must be reserved only for cases where all other methods have failed. If defederation is used liberally, then a small group of malicious users can effectively completely shut down the federated network, by simply creating the type of drama between instances which would inevitably result in defederation. In my view, federation is the biggest strength of Lemmy compared to any centralized discussion forum, so naturally I think maintaining federation by default is an important goal in general.

I am also a believer in the value of deplatforming hateful content, but I think defederation is not the best way to do this. Banning individual users, banning communities and establishing a culture of mutual support between mods and admins of different instances should be the first line of defense against such content. There are some further steps that can be taken before defederation as well, but these are not really documented anywhere (in order to prevent circumvention). The point is: for myself, defederation is the absolute last resort, only to be used when it is completely clear that other methods are ineffective.

Finally, I am wary of creating a false expectation among lemm.ee users that lemm.ee admins endorse all users and communities and content on instances we are federated with. Here at lemm.ee, we use a blocklist for federation, which means our default apporach is to federate with all new instances. We do not have the resources (manpower, skills and knowledge) necessary to pass judgement on all instances which exist out there, as a result, users on lemm.ee are expected to curate their own content to quite a high degree. In addition to downvoting and/or reporting as necessary, individual lemm.ee users are also able to block specific users and communities, and the ability to block entire instances is coming very soon as well.

Having said all that, in a situation where all other methods do indeed fail, defederation is not out of the question. Making such a call is up to the discretion of lemm.ee admins, and doing it as a last resort is completely in line with our federation policy.

Regarding hexbear

Hexbear is an established Lemmy instance, focused on many flavors of leftism. They have quite a large userbase who are very active on Lemmy (often so active that they leave the impression brigading all popular Lemmy posts). One important thing to note is that while some forms of bigotry seem to be quite accepted by many hexbear users (but seemingly not by mods - more on that below), they at least are very protective of LGBT rights (and yes, I am quite certain that they are not just pretending to do this, as many users seem to believe). Additionally, while I have noticed quite high quality posts from hexbear users, there are also several users there who seem to really enjoy trolling and baiting (very reminiscent of 4chan-type “for the lulz” posting), and it’s important to note that this kind of posting is in general allowed on hexbear itself.

The reason this whole topic is important to so many people right now (despite hexbear being a relatively old instance), is that hexbear only recently enabled federation. A combination of their volume of posts, their strong convictions, the excitement about federation, and the aforementioned trolling has made them very visible to almost all Lemmy users, and this has sparked discussions about the value of federation with hexbear on a lot of Lemmy instances.

My own experience with hexbear

I want to write down my own experience with interacting with hexbear users, mods, and admins over the past few days. I believe this experience will highlight why I am hesitant to advocate for immediate full defederation from hexbear at this point in time, and am for now still more in favor of taking action on a more individual user basis. Please read and see how you feel about the situation afterwards.

Background

My first real contact with hexbear users was in the comments section of a post in this meta community requesting defederation from hexbear by @glimpythegoblin@lemm.ee. That post is now locked, because several hexbear users very quickly started doing the aforementioned “for the lulz” type spamming of meme images in the comments (these are actually just emojis, but they are rendered as full-size images on all instances other than the source instance, due to a current Lemmy bug).

I did not want to take further actions in that thread in general (for archival purposes), but I did take one action, which in retrospect was a mistake: I removed a comment which contained the hammer and sickle symbol. I ignorantly associated this symbolism with Kremlin propaganda, and the atrocities my own people suffered at the hands of the soviet union during the previous century. Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all. I am grateful for users who pointed this out to me without resorting to personal attacks.

Let me be clear here: while I do not have anything against leftism or communist ideas in general (in fact in today’s world, I think discussion of such ideas is quite necessary), Kremlin propaganda has no place on lemm.ee. Any dehumanizing talking points of the Kremlin on lemm.ee are treated as any other bigotry, and if communist symbolism is used in context of Kremlin propaganda (that is the context in which I have been exposed to it throughout my whole life), then it will still be removed. But there is no blanket ban on communist symbolism in general on lemm.ee, and discussing and advocating for leftist and communist topics (as distinct from the imperialist and dehumanizing policies of the Kremlin) is certainly allowed on lemm.ee.

Hexbear user response

Coming back to the events of the past few days: soon after my removal of the comment containing the symbol from the meta thread, two posts popped up on hexbear. One was focused on insulting and spreading lies about me personally. Another was focused on diminishing the horrors of the soviet occupation in my country. In the comments under both of these posts (and in a few other threads on hexbear), I noticed some seriously disturbing bigotry against my people. There were comments which reflected the anti-Estonian propaganda of the current Russian state, things like:

  • Suggesting that my people has no right to exist
  • Stating that my people (and other Baltic nations) are subhuman
  • Claiming that anybody critical of both nazi and soviet occupations is themselves a nazi and a holocaust denier

I expect to hear such statements from the Russian state - here in Estonia, we are subjected to this and other kinds of bigotry constantly from Russian media - but to see it spread openly in non-Russian channels is extremely disturbing. Such bigotry is completely against lemm.ee rules in general. Additionally, my identity is public information, because I feel it’s important for the integrity of lemm.ee that I don’t hide behind anonymity. Considering this, I’m sure you can understand why I am very worried about my own safety when people leave comments in many unrelated threads (where my original posts are not even visible), baselessly calling me a nazi and a holocaust denier.

Note that the goal of this post is not to start a new debate in the comments about the the repressions of the soviet union in Estonia or other occupied territories, but if the topic interests any users, I can recommend the 2006 documentary The Singing Revolution (imdb). The trailer is a bit cheesy, but the actual film contains lots of historical footage from the soviet occupation, and also many interviews with people who experienced it, who share stories which are deeply familiar to all Estonians. If anybody is interested in further discussion, then I suggest making a post about it in the Estonian community here: !eesti@lemm.ee.

Hexbear admin response

After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:

  1. They immediately removed the personal attacks and dehumanizing comments containing Kremlin propaganda from Hexbear, and assured me that such content is always handled by mods
  2. They told me that while there are all kinds of leftists on hexbear, Russian disinformation is generally either refuted in comments or removed by mods
  3. They implemented some additional rules on hexbear to try and reduce the trolling experienced by many other instances, including ours: https://hexbear.net/post/352119
My personal take-aways

Let me play the devil’s advocate here and employ some “self-whataboutism”: among all users that have been banned on lemm.ee for bigotry, the majority were actually not users from other instances, and in fact people with lemm.ee accounts. If we judge any larger instance only by bigoted posts that some of its users make, then we might as well declare all instances as cesspools and close down Lemmy completely. I believe it’s far more useful to judge instances based on moderation in response to such content. Just as we remove bigoted content from lemm.ee, I have also witnessed bigoted content being removed from hexbear.

At the same time, I am aware of some internal conflict between hexbear users over the more strict moderation they are now starting to employ, and I am definitely keeping an eye on that situation and how admins handle it.

I am also still quite worried about the amount of distinct users on hexbear who have posted Kremlin propaganda. I so far don't have reason to believe that these users are employed by the Russian state, but the fact that they are spreading the same hateful content which can be seen on Russian television seems problematic to say the least, and it remains to be seen if moderators can truly keep up with such content.

Where thing stand right now

I am not convinced that we are currently at a point where the “last resort” of defederation is necessary. This is based on the presumption that our moderation workload at lemm.ee will not get out of hand just due to users from that particular instance. My current expectation is that as the excitement of federation calms down (and as new rules on hexbear go into effect), the currently relatively high volume of low effort trolling will be replaced by more thoughtful posts. If this is not the case then we will certainly need to re-evaluate things.

Additionally, nothing is changing about our own rules regarding bigotry. Especially relevant in the context of Kremlin propaganda, I want to say that dehumanizing anybody is not allowed on lemm.ee (hopefully I do not have to spell it out, but this of course includes Ukrainians, LGBT folks, and others that the Kremlin despises), and action will be taken against any users who do this, regardless of what instance they are posting from.

Finally, I am very interested to hear thoughts and responses from our own users. I am super grateful to anybody who actually took the time to read through this massive dump of my own thoughts, and I am very interested to get a proper understanding of how our users feel about what I’ve written here. Please share any thoughts in the comments.

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[-] CrypticCoffee@lemm.ee 34 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Thank you for your candour, and much respect for you going against what could have been personally easy for you to do. Your adherence to your principles over your emotions and personal experiences show a really strong character.

This instance is my go to, recommended instance. You've shown great technical leadership and now you're showing leadership in moderation. If people don't want to see hexbear, they have a choice in .world or beehaw (who seem to defederate quicker than Chelsea putting in a bid for a player they've just heard of). The fact that .ee can differentiate gives users that freedom to choose.

I do think that those opposed to federation with hexbear are a loud minority and using the same arguments as was applied against lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. In many cases they aren't nuanced views, just recycled lines repeated. It's so frequently and so similar, I have wondered if it's brigading. Is this people who were on exploding heads that are still angry and trying to get even?

Please ignore the initial hot response you'll get, and give people time to come to terms with and accept what you've said. They often push and push and push until you yield, and you need to keep strong to maintain this as your choice, which it should be. Even if you do defederate later, do it on your terms and based on clear criteria of what you feel is right. Many will agree with my view, but don't always wade in on debates. Often the ones that respond are the ones that are most emotionally agitated. I am responding to show support for you and what you have been through, and thank you for your transparency. I respect your integrity.

For disclosure: I am a leftie, but personally opposed to communism. I am opposed to authoritarianism on both sides of the political spectrum. I welcome debate with people that differ from them views. I'm already frequently immersed in debate with Americans that have a very different view of capitalism, and I can live with that. I ain't a snowflake, and I don't endorse cancel culture (I do feel a whiff of irony here and I think it's important to raise that rhetoric the right often throw at at the left, because if you believe if free speech, you believe in free speech).

[-] CrypticCoffee@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

One point I'll add that I think needs saying is that these folk set up after CTH got banned from reddit. They were pushed into an echo chamber against their choice. It's been years now, and they've got used to that echo chamber and how they behave around each other. Federating means that culture that they have been used to for years is now not the only way to operate and could be problematic for them. It will take some time to bed in, and realise low effort in joke meme's just won't work. They will be outside their comfort zones and it could be disconcerting, but will learn to adjust. Some quicker than others.

The point I am making is that initial impressions may not reflect the behaviour 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year or 2 years down the line. Do we believe that people should be pushed to the fringe in echo chambers, or do we believe that maybe reddit's content policies are probably more geared to atmosphere and money than what is correct for an online discussion forum?

Perhaps some would even realise that instance isn't right for them, and while they can interact with it, and have that freedom they feel more at home with general purpose instances.

[-] StalinwasaGryffindor@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago

Hi, I just want to say that to many of us in hexbear what you see as an echo chamber is a safe space. Most of us live in capitalist countries and are constantly being exposed to capitalist propaganda.

Personally, I like having a place where I can discuss things important to me without having to be constantly contradicted by people with what I view as a very shallow understanding of history and geopolitics. It’s honestly kind of silly to pretend that people on the left don’t get their opinions and views challenged, we are absolutely inundated with different views on a daily basis

[-] CrypticCoffee@lemm.ee 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I understand the concept of a safe space. I'm referring to the pro-China/Russia views. I'm a British democratic socialist. A proud lefty. I dislike large countries and their foreign policy (Russia, China and US). With that, I dislike my government's conduct in the world, and their actions in support Israel, and Saudi etc. I am frequently dismayed and embarrassed. However, some of the pro Stalin stuff is weird, disturbing and has festered for a while. Can you be principled when you condemn some atrocities and rationalise away others?

I will engage in debate of course, and challenge where fit. I don't think that echo chamber was good in some respects.

[-] StalinwasaGryffindor@hexbear.net -2 points 1 year ago

So, I’m sure that as a proud lefty you understand the concept of critical support, but just in case: most of us are not pro-China/pro-Russia, but have support -with criticisms when warranted- of their role in ending the current global system of US hegemony. I won’t go into Russia too much, as I think they’re a terrible capitalist country with deeply regressive laws but I do support them in their fight against nato and in giving another option for global south countries to reach out to when it comes to trade and military support.

China to me is a much clearer example of a country that has the opportunity to become a superpower without the truly horrendous bloodshed that has been a feature of American dominance. They also, in my opinion, have shown themselves to take climate change much more seriously than most countries, and given the daily news stories of the devastation we’re seeing I’m very grateful that a large country is making the steps they are.

When it comes to the Stalin memes, some of it is ironic, but a lot of it is serious. Stalin wasn’t perfect and definitely made mistakes, but his leadership of the Soviet Union was instrumental in defeating nazism and for that alone he deserves critical support.

[-] Historical_General@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago

I do think that those opposed to federation with hexbear are a loud minority and using the same arguments as was applied against lemmygrad and lemmy.ml. In many cases they aren’t nuanced views, just recycled lines repeated. It’s so frequently and so similar, I have wondered if it’s brigading. Is this people who were on exploding heads that are still angry and trying to get even?

I've been wondering too.

this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
975 points (96.7% liked)

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