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this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023
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Since I heard about this whole fiasco I'm more and more dumbfounded.
There was this guy, who invented a way to dive for cheap (he listens to the carbon, and if there is a suspicious sound then he quickly comes back to the surface), complaining about the regulations which were holding submarines back. He fired the whistleblower who made reports about the danger of the equipment. He was fired and escorted outside.
Make him a meme, let's call him the "I told you so" guy. Surely he will be invited in TV shows about this whole affair.
The equipment, a game console controller? Seriously? Gaming equipment is simple: It's about 3% return policy. Depends on the brand. The people who swear that game controllers are safe are among the 97% who never had a return. They are the people who answers "mine works" on a forum when someone ask why his controller failed. If your game controller is broken, the service is : we send you a new one under 48 hours.
--> This service policy doesn't work at 3800m under the water, folks! This is not the right equipment. What kind of person bets the life of 4 people on gaming equipment?? We all know why he did it, because he hates regulations and he hates paying a premium on redundant equipment. He is in for the money, nothing else. So let's cut the costs on the hardware, let's not listen to anyone and let's not purchase the product of the engineers who designed equipment specially with these constraints in mind.
From time to time there is always a guy who pops-up and believes that regulations are made by people with too much free time in their hands.
The game controller thing gets meme'd to death, but I don't think people focus on the right thing.
Xbox controllers are also used by the US Navy, among other branches of the military.
These are GOOD pieces of engineering, and they're tested by millions of users under pretty strenuous conditions. However, the controller the Oceangate was using was some shitty-ass third-party controller that you can get for peanuts off Amazon.
THAT, IMO, is the issue that this piece of equipment illustrates. A solid Xbox Series S controller is $60 on Amazon, and you're telling me you had to go for cheaper?
I don't think the fact that the controller was wireless gets highlighted enough. Bluetooth devices have a hard time working above sea level and you're expecting it to work 3800m below the surface. Delusional.
BT devices got problems only when water is in between anetna1 and antena2. It does not matter at what altitude the devices are, just what is inbetween them.
What if they command something in the water? Have you seen the design?
Well yes, if they use something in a way specifically contraindicated by the nature of the technology then that's problematic.
Do you have evidence that this was the case, or are you moving the goal posts to the "no shit sherlock" zone for an easy win?
Don't put on me your burden of proof.
Well, turns out they did. So now that we have established that they don't follow protocol, are you going to show us their design or are you going to reddit your way out of this conversation?
Source that they did? I've seen nothing to support that to date.
That's exactly my point, no one here has any source about the design. Why don't YOU ask the people above about THEIR source?
Don't act surprised when I answer you the same way you answer me. Now either you bring some source to support the question that was made by someone above you or I'm done. I'm not your source magic machine.
The person who started this chain of conversation is gone btw. I don't know the point you are trying to make.
The guy above is correct, altitude has no effect on the BT transmission. You can assume they used the tech in a way it can't (or nearly can't) be used if you want, I guess. I'm not going to go and prove that they didn't because that was your assertion, not mine. The vessel had many successful dives before this happened, so logic would dictate that the wireless implementation was working.
I never said otherwise and we both know it.
I'm not gonna play the reddit game with you. I have no burden of proof. Find another strawman to play with.
The designer is dead.
The designer is dead so the wireless didn't work?
Does that count as a coherent argument to you? I wouldn't make fun of redditors if you can't make a better argument than that...
The people who trusted the guy are dead. You take his logic as gospel, good for you.
Now I got from other sources that the wifi was commanding the propeller. Meaning that yes, the wifi signal was supposed to travel through the water.
No either you have something of value to the discussion and you post it, or you don't post and we're done.
You've been thoroughly unpleasant to chat with, so I think we're done either way.
Take care.
edit: Judging by your reputation points it seems the community already warned me. Guess I'll check that first in the future.
This was your opener, "Mr Good Manners":
You kept insisting that I made an assertion when I didn't.
About my reputation, if this is a metric for you then maybe I should downvote you, right? I didn't downvoted you so far but maybe I should?
Let's try this!
HOOOOOO, look! you went from 2 to -4! It goes fast, right? Right? What a metric! You are a negative reputation now. And I only downvoted you in this thread! Now people will have a surprise when they look at your reputation.
I took the liberty of downvoting you more. You are now at -45. It's a good experiment on how flawed the reputation system works. Maybe you will, like me, refrain from smashing this downvote button and focus more on the content you write. You would see that you strawmen from the very beginning.
Have a fantastic day!
We know for a fact that wifi signal was not supposed to travel through the water, because the sub successfully reached Titanic several times before it was destroyed.
If someone had designed the sub in the bizarre way that you suggested, then it would never have completed a single mission.
If you want to command something in the water, you run a wire from that something to a receiver in the cabin.
Right, exactly. Or for a "sub" that only holds 5 people... maybe just spend the 10 cents and wire it lol.
I mean, the sub had reached Titanic several times, right?
So even without the design documents, we know it was previously capable of operating at depth.
Which we means we know the hull wasn't made of cotton candy, we know it wasn't propelled under water by an internal combustion engine, and we know it wasn't controlled by a device that stops working in water.
OK. Explain why they would have more trouble working at that depth.
https://www.microwavejournal.com/articles/34816-underwater-wireless-communication-using-em-waves
Now it's your turn, tell us what make you think that it would work as usual.
That's dealing with communication through the water. Presumably the controller wouldn't have water between it and its receiver under ideal conditions.
Show it. "Presumably" won't cut it.
For the records, so far the only one with a source is me.
Your link is for wireless transmissions going through water. In this case, it’s still going through air.
It’s not the altitude or depth that matters, it’s the medium through which the signal goes. It will work just fine, from a technical standpoint.
That being said, wireless things are inherently unreliable compared to wired, and it’s stupid to make something so important not as reliable as possible.
I know that. What makes you think that the other part was not in the water? Do you have any source for that?
...
I...
That's not...
...
Sigh...
aka "the easy way out".
You take for granted that the wireless was for inside equipment, I don't. I asked if someone has a source about the design but no one brought anything. That's where we are.
You don't need no attitude here, if you know something then write it and mention the source.
Well - how about out if the receiver is on the the hull - and the bluetooth signals don't have to travel through any water?
Maybe. And? Don't overthink it, I'm answering to someone who boldly claimed:
"OK. Explain why they would have more trouble working at that depth"
and who is long gone btw.
You were replying to me. I'm still here.
Well, I gave you a reason why it would cause problem, if the device piloted was out, in the water.
Do you have a schematic of the sub? I don't.
You were the one who called the decision to use Bluetooth "Delusional". I'm the one who said we have no idea whether it was a good idea or not - so I think we can leave it here.
Does higher air pressure affect Bluetooth signals?
Also, buy better Bluetooth devices, I haven't had to deal with disconnections with quality modern gear outside of battery issues. My first run steam controller hasn't given me any issues with wireless connections while playing, and all of my headphones stay connected to the proper device even when I'm stupid far away (like, I left my phone in the car and I didn't notice any drop in quality until after I entered the store).
Also, backups: the controller doesn't bother me that much UNLESS they had no redundancies for it failing plus checklists. I.E. controller battery dies, use second controller, use wired controller, use control screen, etc. And backup mechanical linkages for critical stuff. I don't know the details but if they lacked these things, then they are (were) definitely morons.
For what it's worth, in one of the old videos the CEO did, he mentioned that they kept two or three of the controllers on board. I think the stuff about game controllers and RV gear is overblown and almost certainly not what caused the problem. The bigger issue to me is the fact that they picked "exotic" materials for the pressure vessel (which while strong, are more brittle and fail more dramatically than steel), didn't get them properly tested or certified, and if they somehow had been found adrift, put no engineering effort into escape or communication in an emergency.
Though thinking about it, I guess the game controller thing is relevant, at least to the extent it points at a pennywise and pound-foolish operation trying to value-engineer a business to go to the bottom of the god-damn ocean. Carbon fiber and tungsten sound amazing, until you realize that a big part of using them was to create a vessel big enough for 5 that was also small and light enough that it could be toted aboard any ship they could rent, and would then be set free from its launch sled by dudes undoing bungee cords.
The thing is that if they cheap out on one area then you have to think "what else did they skimp on?" Like if they're that careless about what you can see you should be terrified of what you can't.
And it'd be one thing if we were all just laughing at some tech bro fulfilling his wacky dream and using some odd parts, its a totally different conversation now that we know the sub imploded. The guy probably cut every corner possible and if those people with him had said "hey, this sub uses shitty consumer grade parts, I'm out" they would be alive still.
The whistleblower said they would pay for the windows rated for something like 1400 meters and refused to pay for the ones rated for 4000 meters. https://www.npr.org/2023/06/21/1183408455/titan-missing-submarine-oceangate-submersible
"Military uses bungee cords, therefore it works!" /kbin
I mean, it wasn't the bungee cords' fault either. Just sad all around, really, especially the 19 year old who was either dragged along or shouldn't have been indulged.
According to the kid's aunt, he'd told a relative he was terrified and didn't really want to go, and the only reason he went is because it was on Father's Day weekend and he wanted to make his dad happy.
The military uses them for autonomous vehicles. There is no risk of loss of life involved if they fail. They also aren't the only control mechanism.
The guy wasn't a military. The guy doesn't like regulations and military is all about regulations.
The navy uses wired controllers to operate periscopes, not wireless ones, and not for anything mission critical. Although I think I remember reading some military drones are or were at one point using controllers because they're easy to train people on, but those are unmanned.
Sure they use "Xbox controllers," the difference in build quality between an authentic Xbox controller and most 3rd party controllers is pretty noticeable.
I have the wired version of the controller they used. It's Mad Catz level garbage.
The man had zero respect for the blood those regulations have been written in.
Make him a meme
Well in this case.
The front really did fall off.
Everyone is focusing on the controller, which I don’t think was the issue here. Also they had spare controllers.
The issue is the hull was made out of fucking fiberglass and titanium. This was the first dive since it had gone through a repair. Some tiny imperfection in that fiberglass, under thousands of pounds of pressure, and you’re fucked.
This is why real submarines are made out of steel.
On the plus side, it was probably a very quick death.