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cross-posted from: https://lemmit.online/post/1006130
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The original was posted on /r/aboringdystopia by /u/Last_Salad_5080 on 2023-10-03 14:21:04.
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this post was submitted on 06 Oct 2023
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It looks like there's at least some bias as they only counted English literacy.
This is basically a map of how many Mexican immigrants each state has. I agree the English bias is not great because not speaking English doesn't make you dumb.
It would be interesting to see the same data, restricted to participants whose first language is English.
Not being able to read also doesn't auromatically equate dumb though. It just highlights a systemic failure of the educations system. And arguably a country experiencing a language divide to this degree is a systemic failure of some kind as well.
Many countries have myriad languages in them, often because they contain myriad cultures. That's not a failing at any level, it's just diversity.
Yeah, but I'd argue those countries either have people being decently fluent in multiple languages (which is not what this graph implies) or they have evolved their institutions and society in a way where meaningful societal and political participation is possible regardless of what language you speak. I don't think the US is at that level, and I think it being that way if this is lived reality for a lot of Americans IS a systemic failure.
The failure is not necessarily having multiple languages spoken, but the institutions not reflecting this reality. So you can either invest in people being fluent in a common language in addition to whatever languages they may speak OR redesign institutions and reshape society. Not doing any of the two is a systemic failure imo.
are you soft blaming this on the immigrants? Immigrants are more likely to speak, read, and write 2 or more languages fluently than it is that the average american can do any of that for 1
Not op but it’s pretty clear they’re not blaming it on immigrants. They’re just pointing out that the map has a bias because immigrants may not have as good English skills specifically.
Its an incredibly large thing to leap to on literally no evidence. Its pure fact that immigrants have far better language skills than the average american, as I said above. They may not know of the racism, but that doesn't mean its there.
Is it racism to suggest that someone might not speak a second language as well as their first language? I’ll freely admit that I’m much worse at my second language than English.
Pinning the entire problem immediately on immigrants is racist. Immigrants are not a problem, they're a scapegoat.
I never said they were the entire problem, it’s just one reason there’s such a gap between say California and Colorado.
To be clear I wasn't trying to leap on, "haha Mexican immigrants can't speak English". I was pointing out proximity to a primarily Spanish speaking country is going to lead to a greater population whose native language is not English, and therefore less fluent English speakers.
I grew up in an area of the US with tons of immigrants, most of whom learned Spanish before English. Going the other way I learned Spanish after learning English, and as such I probably have a less than 6th grade reading level in Spanish because it's not the language I learned from birth, nor the one I speak at home.
I also specifically mentioned Mexican immigrants because the other country we border also has a primary language of English, which is why our northern border has better English literacy rates.
It's a pretty easy correlation to make, and doesn't require a whole study to identify the trend. Spanish is also the second most spoken language in the country so naturally areas with low English literacy rates are likely to have higher populations speaking the second most spoken language in the country. Hell, if you look at a map of latinos in the US it's almost identical to the above map.
Considering what article this comment is under I kinda have to ask now: is English your first language?
Because an understanding of the comment above yours should center on the word "bias", not on the word "immigrant".
I want to look at the eyes of a person who set a white colour on the scale to 12% value.
well since america's literacy is so bad it seems they had to put 12% as the baseline
It’s basically Americas official language, let’s not pretend it isn’t.
That doesn't mean Spanish speakers are illiterate. They just read Spanish.
True, I totally agree.
However, if one is evaluating "functional literacy" that means determining if one reads well enough to function in society.
So to truly evaluate functional literacy for native Spanish speakers, it seems like one would have to somehow factor in two things.
First, English is the de facto language in the US. Second, Spanish language translations are provided for a number of written things (for example, our school district letters to parents).
One would be more functional being fluent only in English than only in Spanish, sure (and it depends on which part of the country even which part of a city). But one would surely be more function having some knowledge of English and fluency in Spanish.
If you go to school in America, you're obviously going to learn and be taught in English. There's a lot of immigrants that don't know any English. I interact with a lot of them, and they'll even have their 6 year olds translate for them. It actually impresses me, because the little kids act very mature when they have to translate, since I'm sure they are used to having to navigate their family around at a very young age.