248
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 13 Nov 2023
248 points (77.2% liked)
World News
38977 readers
3261 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
What war crimes? There is a difference between war and war crimes and hardly anybody on this site knows the difference.
Israel has done all of these things. There is no excuse for war crimes. It doesn't matter how evil the enemy is, you are not allowed to do these things and not be a war criminal.
Civilian infrastructure are public works dedicated solely to civilians and does not inherently include power. You do not understand war crimes.
Collective punishment implies no military purpose. Israel is being very careful to include military purpose in all their narratives. You do not understand war crimes.
Forcible relocation is only occurring if Israel does not allow them to return after the current conflict is concluded. This is not relevant right now and is actively warned against. You do not understand war crimes.
Israel has not ordered civilians to any specific area they have then bombed. There's a lot of disinformation around this one in terms of hitting former routes well after they should've been gone. You don't understand the information space.
Israel has a border. That's not blockading a population in anymore than Egypt is guilty of the exact same thing within context. You don't understand war crimes.
Not providing food is not the same thing as depriving of food and it's been shown to go to Hamas, not the civilian population when they do. You don't understand the information space or war crimes. This does however show why they want to end the conflict as quickly as possible. It clouds decision making.
Bombing a convoy of mismarked vehicles is not a war crime. Just because you through a red crescent on your logistics vehicles and then use them to transport combatants does not make it an illegitimate target. Hamas does this because it works. The IDF has shown at least some of their intelligence supporting this. https://www.idf.il/en/mini-sites/hamas-israel-war-articles-videos-and-more/war-on-hamas-2023-resources/hamas-terrorist-uses-ambulances-for-transportation-purposes/ You don't understand war crimes.
Something called a refugee camp for 80 years is not an active refugee camp. You don't understand the information space
Intentionally targeting reporters is a war crime. I'm yet to see anything close to intent but it is sad that reporters have been caught up and killed regardless. They are actively trying to gain more information from Gaza which does put them more at risk.
The IDF is not using white phosphorous munitions within Gaza City but have probably used it for illumination. This is perfectly legal. You don't understand the information space.
If any of these statements are inaccurate, feel free to provide a source that has actual evidence. War crimes happen in literally every army so don't think I don't think they happen. The difference is when it is planned, condoned, and unprosecuted by the supporting organization. That is my burden of proof. I have seen the Hamas operations order. The IDF have so far not been acting out of accordance with what's expected of a modern professional fighting force.
Did I say that civilian infrastructure includes power?
I can read. I can read the UN charters. I understand war crimes.
No it does not. There is a definition in international law. Nothing is implied, it is defined.
Again, relocating is defined in the UN charters. This is where you should go if you would like to understand the definitions of war crimes.
This has been independently verified by the BBC. Israel did exactly this, repeatedly.
And did Israel allow any Palestinians through that border after October 7th? Or did it close the border and bomb the Rafah crossing, thus blockading the entire Gaza Strip?
Not allowing any food in is depriving of food
Vehicles were not mismarked, they were legit, as the Red Cross independently verified. You would also need some proof that they were mismarked before bombing them, which was not gathered.
A "refugee camp" is not a refugee camp. What is it then? A tomato?
It's not even remotely legal to use while phosphorus in areas where civilians are present, or even where event combatants may be present. Again, check the charters (chemical weapons).
Sources: Red Cross International, BBC, UN charters.
Your entire reply can be summed up as "no you are lying" without addressing any of the points. If you cannot admit that an 80 year old location called a refugee camp I'd not functioning as a refugee camp anymore I don't think there is anything you will accept as truth. You are very taken by propaganda and you do not validate claims, as a lot of folks on here do.
Literally all of these claims have been made against NATO countries when I've seen it personally to not be true and I've seen NATO take the same approach to the response. Insurgents and others at a disadvantage such as Hamas lie because it's the only way they can gain the information war. Find one example where Hamas admits that one of their members were killed. You cannot because according to them, all Israel hits are civilians and ambulances and they've never traveled in one. Not once.
I can accept it if I'm shown evidence. I'm a scientist, I need data and a sound hypothesis to change my mind. I don't care about personal experience or lived truth when I'm trying to find objective truth.
If you'd like to sum up my reply as three words, that's up to you. If you want to believe that I'm taken by propaganda, that's fine too, but it's more than a little bit intellectually lazy. There are laws that define war crimes. In my reading of them, and many others', there is between little and no room for the evidence we've seen to amount to anything other than a war crime. At least a huge amount of compelling evidence the other way would be needed to exonerate. Take for example the footage we've seen of entire square kilometers of Gaza completely flattened by building. There we have evidence of the war crime of targeting civilian infrastructure except if there's also evidence that all of it was a Hamas base. Now, it seems unlikely that this is possible, unless everyone in Gaza is a member of Hamas. Another extraordinary claim which would require extraordinary evidence to be borne out.
In general, my view on the situation in Israel has been that there are no good guys. In recent days, though, I'm watching a democratic state ally of my country committing horrific crimes against humanity, with weapons provided by my country and other allies. Hamas never had my support. Netenyahu's Israel has lost it.
If you are a scientist then I'll ask you to consider two things. How often do people talk to you about your expertise and get it wrong and how does that make you feel? Imagine if it's an ethical issue.
Occam's razor is how you handle what you see without sufficient evidence. What we are seeing is exactly what I would expect to see with a professional army taking two cities defended by 40,000 trained defenders with years to prepare. This includes the information space. Why would you think differently?
I don't expect to see anything, that's the point. That causes bias in your thinking. The evidence I have seen fulfils the criteria for war crimes, as I pointed out in my bullet-point list above. I accept that there can be excuses for these actions, but only when there is sufficient evidence to prove the extraordinary case. Now, we have seen the evidence that Israel has done these things, but we haven't seen the evidence that there are extraordinary factors. Occam's Razor requires that the explanation for an effect should contain as few agents as possible when considering the unknown causes. Adding in a tunnel network, or a Hamas base where there is no evidence for one is in violation of Occam's Razor. The simple explanation is that Israel is being indiscriminate in its attacks. As supporting factors, Israel has attacked indiscriminately and illegally in the past, and Israel has lied to the international media and community in the past.
When people ask me about my expertise I get excited that I get to talk about it. If someone were to refuse to believe me I would find it funny.
The tunnels are extremely well documented. Absence of solid evidence for an underground base would actually support the approach that Israel took. Otherwise they would simply bomb it. This is consistent with current doctrine and so evidence in support of their approach.
How do you feel about people who are ideologically opposed to your field and also ignorant?
The tunnels are not well documented enough for, say, a map of them, are they? We don't know if there is a tunnel under x or y building that has been flattened. So that's not sufficient evidence.
Like I said, I think they're funny.