Toxicity in Hyprland : leftistunix

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 33 points 6 months ago

The /r/linux thread has been brigaded by his groupies. This seems to be a trend when some racist transphobe cybercracker comes under fire.

It's also true that thar subreddit is trash. So maybe the thread would not have looked much different without brigading.

Also I don't understand the deal with Hyprland. For some reason the distro I use (void linux) can't or won't package it. Never looked into why.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 6 months ago

cybercracker

hahaha I'm using that from now on

That sub is normally trash, true. But, there's another thread about this topic that's a bit better.

distro I use (void linux)

How do you like that compared to other distros?

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 6 months ago

If you want a layman'sol opinion between Arch Linux ARM and Void Linux I much prefer Void Linux partly because systemd. I don't hate systemd but it seems to add a layer of esoteric complexity that I have discovered I don't need through my usage of Void Linux.

For example, I had been trying to set up a wifi USB adapter on Arch. I have installed and configured iwd for this. In Void, this would have been enough. But in Arch, there is a one-shot service that checks if network is available and other services that need network/internet can use this service as a depenendency. This is a nice feature but it turns out I then also have to configure this wifi interface in some systemd folder otherwise the one-shot service does not care a out the wifi adapter. Until I did this, some services would not start until the one-shot service timed out and failed and these kinds of problems are hard to google or ask help for because it is hard to tell in the first place what is going wrong.

There are other things like how systemd comes with its own implementations of ntpd, dns confguration and even some cron equivalent. It is very confusing. I guess it's valuable knowledge if one uses systemd distros all the time though.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 6 months ago

yeah systemd isn't for me, but I don't hate it. On debian so far it hasn't really affected me negatively. After xz vulnerability I see increasing problems with it, and am considering using other distros including void......or one of the bsd's........

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Using OpenRC on Gentoo saved me from Fractureiser. There's some benefit from using less common tools.

Once I get my Gentoo setup back up and running, I plan to use OpenRC+s6. s6's developer talks about issues with different init systems here. I don't hate systemd, but I believe different systems fulfill different purposes with different requirements, and some tools are better suited for different requirements. Nonetheless, I would prefer there to be options unless a specific tool fulfills all purposes better than others.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago

All of that makes sense to me. I'm not using gentoo though lol. I'd probably keep a debian install around at all times out of habit.....For non systemd linux probably void, and for unix like probably one of the bsd's

[-] ksynwa@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I have not used other distros except for Arch Linux ARM on a SBC. Personally all I care about is the packages I want/need in the official repos.

[-] sonymegadrive@feddit.uk 7 points 6 months ago

Void won’t package Hyprland because it doesn’t use a stable/tagged version of wlroots, so it needs a vendored version to build it (ref: https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/issues/37544)

[-] Lucien@hexbear.net 20 points 6 months ago

r/linux is a cesspool

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 15 points 6 months ago

To be fair, there was another thread discussing the same topic, and many people were calling out the vaxry, and pointing out the amount of brigading going on. Once any topic like this is brought up, the worst type of people come out......

[-] ShiningWing@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 6 months ago

Oh wow, that thread wasn't around last time I checked (when I made my post in the weekly megathread), it really does go to show how the other thread is just entirely brigading when there's a clear community consensus in the thread you mentioned of how fucked up it all is

Honestly, I think /r/linux is somehow less of a cesspool than the Lemmy equivalent most of the time lol, though at least it so far hasn't had this kind of brigading issue

[-] Lucien@hexbear.net 6 points 6 months ago

It's still a cesspool. They were mad about the RMS fiasco, but for the wrong reasons. A lot of reddit tech subs were on his side during that.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 6 months ago

I remember that....it's a shame people couldn't just accept RMS isn't perfect. Always looking for any reason to defend him

[-] nickwitha_k 11 points 6 months ago

It IS on reddit.

[-] sudo@programming.dev 19 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

The Wayland compositor that looks like it was made by /g/ has toxicity issues? 😲

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Every option other than banning Vaxry has been exhausted over the past year and a half. I personally spent several weeks following my last blog post on the matter discussing Vaxry’s behavior in confidence and helping him understand how to improve, and at my suggestion he joined a private community of positive male role models to discuss these issues in a private and empathetic space. After a few weeks of these private discussions, the last thing he said to me was “I do believe there could be arguments to sway my opinion towards genocide”.

Wow, the Hyprland dev is a total POS. Glad I use sway (at least I hope there's not fascists running it, too). I eventually want to migrate to river once I figure out how to extend it to my needs (probably need to learn Zig first, which is on my bucket list), but I really like sway's tiling capabilities now.

Hopefully Hyprland is forked with a better dev/team

Honestly, I wish there was an alternative to Wayland, given the number of toxic devs in that sphere and the drama that occurs over the most basic features that never get implemented for many years because the team wants to essentially dictate how people should run their computers, while ignoring all of the special use cases, such as multi-window layouts for scientific programs. (This statement is a bit hyperbolic.)

Though it's not just Wayland, the open source community in general can be extremely toxic.

[-] Eyck_of_denesle@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 months ago

“I do believe there could be arguments to sway my opinion towards genocide”.

Can someone explain this part to me. Please.

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

There is a disclaimer if you missed it:

Yes, this is taken out of context. But, if you raise this objection, I struggle to imagine in what context you think this statement can be read sympathetically.

Regardless of what statement this sentence (said from the Hyprland dev) comes from, this is still unhinged and essentially Nazi/fascist-sympathetic. I haven't seen further context to conversation myself, but I still say the dev is deplorable.

[-] landlords_morghulis@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Honestly, I wish there was an alternative to Wayland

I've been happily using the alternative for more than 25 years so far

Edit: Choosing to stan Poettering is a weird choice. You know he works for microsoft, right? The gigantic fascist software monopoly place that has been openly destroying human rights for decades, collaborates with the CIA/NSA/FBI and US state as a mass surveillance apparatus. He's also always been an arrogant child, picking fights with principled engineers and working against the efforts of unix philosophy to insert awful windowisms into our ecosystem. Poettering is a disease on FOSS and his legacy is using RedHat/IBM to insert systemd (which is basically CIA bloatware with a massive pid-zero attack surface) into Linux will never be forgiven.

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I did not know much, if anything, about Poettering. That's good to know. My goal is to use OpenRC with s6, and I like how the s6 dev wants to create an init system to compete against systemd. I don't like systemd for its bloat and flawed design, and some recent features of systemd have been sus.

I don't pay much attention to dev manchildren, so forgive me if I am not aware of their histories.

[-] landlords_morghulis@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 months ago

Apologies if my Poettering rant was worded too strongly. I guess I just mean that there are very good reasons people dislike him so much. He's earned far less animosity than he deserves imo.

s6 is cool, though I've not played around with it too much. I've mostly stuck with runit on my Linux systems since it's simple, fast and I'm happy with it. You might take a look at dinit, too, if you haven't already. It's still maturing, but dinit is probably the most syntactically similar to systemd. Both are very fast.

[-] oscardejarjayes@hexbear.net 15 points 6 months ago

Sucks, hyprland seems like a cool project. Oh well, guess I'll stay satisfied on Sway.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 6 months ago

sway? I'm still on X11 lmao

[-] Cysioland@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 6 months ago

Honestly as a Linux normie I just switched from GNOME (X11) to GNOME (Wayland) to Plasma (Wayland)

[-] landlords_morghulis@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 4 months ago

KDE (kuserfeedback) is spyware you cannot remove.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 6 months ago

I'm so far behind on wayland compared to everyone else

[-] xkyfal18@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It’s cool, but holy, I’m considering making the switch to sway or something after this one

[-] xkyfal18@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 6 months ago

This is sad. I like hyprland and it’s currently my daily driver. I tend to stay out of communities other than this one so I didn’t know Vaxry was a terrible person.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago

yeah, hopefully things change

[-] Shinji_Ikari@hexbear.net 3 points 6 months ago

I was about to give hyprland a try to see what the wayland offerings were like but after I saw that thread yesterday, I think I'm just going to stick to the screen tearing beauty of xmonad.

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

I recommend sway. Vivarium uses desktop semantics inspired by xmonad. niri is an interesting scrollable tiling window manager.

[-] Shinji_Ikari@hexbear.net 2 points 6 months ago

Thanks for the recommendations! Niri is very interesting as a proof of concept.

Vivarium looks like its not very actively developed which is sorta sad. I'm going to need to do more research into what's around. There's a lot of toy projects out there but not as many mature offerings.

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

It does seem XMonad is looking for help with a Wayland version: https://discourse.haskell.org/t/xmonad-for-wayland-call-for-help/7812

[-] Shinji_Ikari@hexbear.net 2 points 6 months ago

Hm if I was more familiar with Haskell and Wayland I'd jump in on that. I barely learned enough Haskell to configure my setup and I've been going all in on learning Rust in the recent months. I fear I may actually be too dumb for a fully functional language.

[-] rostselmasch@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago

Person is awfull. But I dont understand, why someone would stop using this software cause of that.

[-] whoami@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago

well it's up to each individual to decide if they want to use that software or not

[-] rostselmasch@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 6 months ago

That wasn't my point, whether someone should use it or not. It was more that I don't understand a decision to reject this software for this reason. There is no question that this person is reactionary.

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

Personally, I don't want to support a project, whether as a user or some sort of contributor, if such a project is ran by a dangerous person whose actions are harmful and threaten the safety of trans people (for example). Similar to the event of PolyMC's hostile takeover by a reactionary, I worry about my safety of using a program if it is ran by someone with malicious perspectives and ideas.

In my opinion, the community has an obligation to condemn reactionaries within their community and by all means protect all of their members, through any means necessary. If reactionaries are given multiple chances to redeem themselves and still reject the demands of the community, they deserve to be removed by the community. The community shall fill the void of any valuable lost products created by reactionary individuals if necessary.

[-] rostselmasch@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 6 months ago

I wouldn't want to support such a project with donations or by working on the program code. I couldn't participate in such an environment. I just don't see any connection between the finished program and the reactionary attitude of the project owner that it might pose a threat to the safety of certain people.

The issue with the community is one thing and how it should be dealt with, i.e. through exclusion etc. - But apparently there are people who wanted to use this software because it's good, but now don't because of that. So they're hoping for a fork or that someone will take it over quickly. That still doesn't make sense to me. If someone does feel uncomfortable using it, OK. But apart from that, I don't see any concrete effects on anything if you continue to use this software. Nor how the use itself supports the project or poses a threat to anyone.

For my part, I have no problem using software that was or is developed by someone who is reactionary. If the reactionary thinking is not reflected in the code (how also?), it is no different to me than importing the different dependencies in my own code, where I don't even know if the persons which developed it are not reactionary after all. It is one thing how to react to such folks but thats not what I am talking about

But I am happy to learn and I could also be totaly wrong with my point.

[-] Imnecomrade@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

To be honest, I may not have the best answer for this. One thing to consider is that there is no ethical consumption under capitalism, and that boycotting products, companies, and individuals is not going to solve the problem of capitalism and its symptoms. We have to do what we can to survive. I am not going to condemn people who still want to use Hyprland. In a socialist society, I believe my earlier statement would be applicable. However, I would consider the open source community as antagonistic to the capitalist system, and it is a part of our society that is need of rooting out its reactionary elements where possible and most effective. Just as a party needs to have its members accountable for their reactionary actions, the open source community must collectively do likewise. I believe FDO made the appropriate choice of removing this individual from their community. I believe the Hyprland project may likely suffer through this alone as the dev cannot contribute to the important projects Hyprland depends on. People using Hyprland don't need to immediately abandon it for now, but I suspect a fork of Hyprland with a better team may be necessary at some point in the future depending on if and how the original project devolves.

PolyMC's hostile takeover lead to the fork of Prism Launcher, which has become the surviving project as the majority of devs were kicked out and moved to the new project. In the case of Hyprland, a protest fork would require a separate team dedicated to the project, which of course would be less certain to succeed, but may be feasible as it isn't a large project such as the Linux kernel.

I believe efforts to such a fork would be beneficial, but resolving these issues with forks to isolate from reactionary devs will not actually solve the actual source of the problem, which is the far-right propaganda, media, culture, etc. enabled and enforced by capitalism. So yes, exclusion of reactionaries is a band-aid solution (sometimes more harmful than helpful in some cases), and people should use the tools that help them survive in this capitalist society. I just personally like to boycott some of the most abusive and dangerous companies and individuals when I can, and I believe we should condemn reactionaries for dangerous and bigoted behavior (and have them face the consequences of their actions) as it important for unifying the working class and protecting minorities. We need to root out racism, sexism, etc. as it inhibits the working class from working together and realizing their true enemy.

Linux for Leftists