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The following is the text copied from the reddit post in the /r/blind sub reddit.

Moderators of r/blind—along with moderators in other communities who use assistive technologies and Reddit users with accessibility expertise—had a Zoom meeting with representatives at Reddit on Friday, June 16, 2023. While the call was promising in that Reddit invited us to be part of continuing dialog and demonstrated some well-conceived accessible designs for Reddit users, we came away with serious concerns which Reddit was either unable or unwilling to address during the meeting.

Reddit is currently prioritizing accessibility for users rather than for moderators, and representatives were unwilling to provide timelines by when Reddit’s moderation tools would be accessible for screen reader users. Further, Reddit representatives seemed unaware that blind moderators rely on third-party applications because Reddit’s moderation tools present significant accessibility challenges. They also seemed unaware that the apps which have so far received exemptions from API pricing do not have sufficient moderation functions. u/NTCarver0 explained that blind moderators will be unable to ensure safety for our communities—as well as for Reddit in general—without accessible moderation systems, and asked Reddit representatives how blind moderators were supposed to effectively moderate our communities without them. Reddit representatives deferred the question, stating they would have to take notes and get back with us. A fellow moderator, u/MostlyBlindGamer, also pointed out that blind moderators who are unable to effectively moderate the subreddit and thus will become inactive may be removed at Reddit’s discretion per policy, and that such removal would leave r/Blind with no blind moderators. Reddit representatives also deferred comment on this issue.
Reddit representatives refused to answer questions concerning the formal certifications, accreditations or qualifications of employees tasked with ensuring universal accessibility. These certifications demonstrate that a professional has the knowledge necessary to create universally-accessible software and/or documents. Because Reddit cannot confirm that employees tasked with universal accessibility hold appropriate certifications or that the company will provide for such training and certification, we have concerns that employees do not have the appropriate knowledge to effectively ensure access for all assistive technology users both at present and in the future. Reddit has also indicated there are not currently any employees who work full-time on accessibility. This is a necessity for any organization as large and influential as Reddit.
Reddit representatives had previously disclosed to r/Blind moderators that an accessibility audit had been performed by a third-party company, however they refused to answer questions as to what company performed the audit or how the audit was conducted. Answers to these questions would have allowed us to determine whether the audit was performed by an accredited organization known for credible and thorough work. Reddit also could not answer questions as to what assistive technologies, such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, dictation softwares, etc., were used during the audit. Bluntly, we cannot know the thoroughness or scope of the audit—and therefore the extent to which Reddit is aware of the accessibility barriers present in their website and apps—without this information.
During the previous meeting, Reddit representatives raised a question regarding perceived disparities between the accessibility of the iOS and Android apps, suggesting the audit did not confirm that the accessibility failings in the iOS app are much more severe than those present in the Android app. During the latest meeting, u/MostlyBlindGamer explained that the iOS app has no labels for the ubiquitous and essential upvote and downvote buttons while the Android app does. This question raises the concern that Reddit representatives may not have a full and actionable understanding of the issues at stake or, in fact, the exact accessibility failings in their apps.
Reddit representatives narrowly defined the scope of the latest meeting less than an hour ahead of it, explicitly excluding third-party apps and API pricing from the conversation. They did acknowledge that this made it difficult to adequately prepare for the meeting.
Reddit refused to define the term “accessibility-focused app,” alleging that this was outside  the scope of the meeting. This term is not industry-standard and was instead created when Reddit carved out an exemption in their upcoming API policies for third-party apps used by blind people to access the platform. Without this definition, we are unable to ascertain whether apps that have not been approved but are nevertheless relied upon by community members qualify for an exemption.
Reddit gave no firm commitments as to when accessibility improvements would be rolled out to the website or apps. However, it is obvious that the Reddit website and apps will not be ready for disabled users—and especially moderators—by July 1.

In general, moderators of r/Blind who attended the call came away with mixed impressions. Reddit seems to be somewhat aware of the myriad accessibility barriers present in their applications and website, and the company appears to be laying the groundwork to fix issues which they are aware of. This is excellent news. However, we also feel that Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future. Finally, we hope that our concerns—especially those pertaining to moderation—will be addressed expeditiously and satisfactorily, thus assuring that r/Blind can operate effectively well into the future. Despite our concerns, we remain open to continued dialog with Reddit in the hope that it will foster a more accessible platform.

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[-] Badabinski@kbin.social 113 points 1 year ago

What's accessibility like for Lemmy/kbin? I wonder if we could get an early start on accessibility with kbin, since it has a much younger codebase.

[-] Gamers_Mate@kbin.social 61 points 1 year ago

I was thinking that as well. /r/blind users just want a place they can talk and post threads that is accessible they owe no loyalty to reddit.

[-] AnonymousLlama@kbin.social 52 points 1 year ago

Kbin seems to be continually looking into updating things but I doubt accessibility / vision support is high on the priority list right now, the issues tracker is almost 300 long.

[-] Badabinski@kbin.social 40 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I wonder if we could find/contact/contract a developer with an accessibility focus. I'm planning on leaving some moderately significant donations in a few days (damn settling periods and bank holidays making that slow), and maybe there could be a community fundraising effort to get an accessibility expert in to submit some PRs. I made a big fuss out of accessibility on Reddit in the lead up to the protest, and it feels hypocritical of me to not keep pushing for it now. Not sure if Ernest would be interested in that or not, but it seems like it might be a good idea.

[-] Gamers_Mate@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

Some of the Devs whos apps that will be shutting down will probably be on board.

[-] density@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago

I think that would be great!

Not that it wouldn't be worthwhile anyway, but as a general thing, changes which greatly improve accessibility for some tend to be positive for everyone. I think that above post really demonstrates that. The /r/Blind users were using the same 3rd party apps as everyone else. Contrary to what reddit is trying to say, there are not particular "accessibility"-only apps. Like there's no daisy reddit. Being accessible was part of the general high quality, thoughtful design. And now they are being told to use the same low quality, shitty tools which nobody else wants to use, but they can't use. Accessibility goes hand in hand with quality. No news to you I'm sure.

I would be shocked (and sad) to learn if the devs here wouldn't appreciate PRs from a knowledgeable contributor along these lines. I think it could be hard to prioritize doing these things already because of how many bazillions of communications are coming in from people who are already using the platform. And if the main dev doesn't have expertise in this area it is also easier to apply oneself to the many problems you do know how to solve rather than going off on a research project.. (I have no idea about the skills of the kbin devs.)

[-] jdp23@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

Agreed, great idea. Maybe a code bounty for this?

Ernest says he's definitely interested in accessbility -- he replied when I originally posted "Don't tell people "it's easy", and six more things Kbin, Lemmy, and the fediverse can learn from Mastodon", which has a section on accessibility. But there are a heck of a lot of other priorities so boosting this would be very helpful.

Here's a post from @weirdwriter noting that kbin's fairly good for accessibility. but I know there are some problems -- here's a bug I filed last week.

[-] ernest@kbin.social 26 points 1 year ago

@jdp23 I remember that, and it's still high on my priority list. In recent days, the instance has been growing so rapidly that I'm focused on keeping it running until the infrastructure is in place. That will happen very soon, and then I'll be able to focus on that and many other aspects that I had to postpone.

[-] Badabinski@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Thanks for all you do! I do devops shit for a living and I can't imagine what it's like to keep the lights on in a situation like this. I'm just really excited for what it feels like this place will become, as are so many others here.

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[-] epicspongee@midwest.social 5 points 1 year ago

One of the easiest things to do is honestly just to learn how to use something like VoiceOver and fix stuff that feels broken. Broke my wrist a while back and had to rely on Talon Voice for getting around my computer cause I couldn't type, was a huuuuuuge eye opener and made it much easier to write accessible software lol.

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[-] FaceDeer@kbin.social 20 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I've never messed with web code before, but I am an experienced professional programmer and I think I can safely say that filing an issue that basically just reads "Kbin needs better accessibility for the blind" would not be particularly useful or welcome.

But what would be very useful indeed would be filing a long, detailed issue that starts with "Kbin needs better accessibility for the blind" and then goes on at great length with bullet-point lists and detailed paragraphs on exactly what it is that needs to change on Kbin to make it more accessible to the blind.

There's a great example right in the quoted article regarding Reddit's iOS app, for example - the upvote/downvote buttons there need to be labelled with alt text. A fully sighted developer might never think of something like that but it would likely be pretty trivial for them to fix.

So if there's any visually impaired users reading this, or users who have experience with making web pages accessible to the visually impaired, I bet that an hour or two of your time compiling a list of such things would be a great use of time.

Edit: Well, it looks like the issue that's basically just "Kbin needs better accessibility" was filed. There's plenty of room for comments to be added, though!

[-] AnalogyAddict@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

As a UX designer with a specialty in accessibility, I'd break up requirements even smaller. Accessibility is an ongoing process (like security,) not an achievement.

A dev can get pretty far just using Lighthouse to audit code, then running through with a free screen reader and with keyboard only. But accessibility can seem daunting if you try to make it one huge ticket.

The best way in my mind is to build basic accessibility testing into every ticket, the way you should do with security concerns, and then have a designer or QA run periodic audits to generate specific update tickets.

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[-] Adama@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Just for starters (knowing that they can be changed with themes) is color contrast

For example up top whether I have subscribed, all, etc selected isn’t clearly obvious.

I mean I can “tell” if I look really closely but there isn’t enough contrast.

There’s some great SASS tooling for identifying if the colors you have meet the recommended WCAG guidance for contrast/visibility.

Alt text and descriptions for items visual elements too.

While it’s hard to enforce across the fediverse I do like how I’ve seen some people post memes and write descriptive text of what is in the panels.

Here’s one I commented on.

https://beehaw.org/post/632458

[-] Badabinski@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yep, this would be fantastic. Ditto goes for the apps. If anyone with experience developing accessible apps wants to help the Artemis dev, that would be awesome. I'm 100% backend, usually in Go or Python, so I don't have much to contribute personally :(

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[-] Pseu@kbin.social 18 points 1 year ago

One nice thing is that because Kbin/Lemmy is federated, they can build an accessible platform and not worry about the powers that be flipping them the bird. There are good accessibility tools in the form of 3rd party apps for Reddit, but those are getting shut down.

[-] Badabinski@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

That's an excellent point! Like, I still think that it would be great for kbin and Lemmy to be accessible (if they're not), but that's another benefit to federation that I hadn't considered.

[-] lixus98@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

Absolutely, the community that contributes to kbin/lemmy also want to help with the accessibility, unlike spez there's no monetary interest.

[-] wave_walnut@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

At least, I can/must add alternative text of image when I post the image to Kbin. Another fediverse tools also might be so.

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[-] tj111@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

I have no idea, but I have professional experience in the space and getting to accessibility standards (WCAG / ADA) compliance is hard for existing apps that didn't consider it out of the gate. That being said there's some low hanging fruit that is pretty easy to implement and hopefully some devs contributing have experience in that space.

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[-] Jaysyn@kbin.social 42 points 1 year ago

They are just blowing smoke up your asses to reduce the bad press before the IP.

Burn them down.

[-] EstiniensBathwater@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

I agree. They are telling you, well, half of what you want to hear, and expecting you to accept that. Don't. Don't expect them to follow through on anything.

[-] demvoter@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

My thoughts exactly.

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[-] Rottcodd@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

Crassly, this whole farce has left me with the impression that most Reddit employees spend most of their time playing Freecell and jerking off, and the sudden expectation that they actually accomplish something has caught them entirely off guard.

[-] mrnotoriousman@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

Just look at how much money they blew threw for their "new reddit" redesign a few years back and gained zero profitability.

[-] corytheboyd@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

Don’t forget this bullshit https://nft.reddit.com/

[-] Haan@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The site has been basically the same and unimproved for a decade. What do the Reddit employees even do? When was the last time they actually improved the site?

I'm sure other former users of old.reddit, like myself, would contend that it actually got worse. Third party apps have been doing all of the heavy lifting. Now that they're being kicked to the curb in favor of profits in anticipation of the IPO, there's a whole bunch of admins sitting on their hands because they have no idea how to do what the community has been doing for nearly two decades.

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[-] riskable@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

most Reddit employees spend most of their time playing Freecell and jerking off

To be fair, if that's all they did Reddit wouldn't be in this dumpster fire of a situation right now.

[-] Mirodir@lemmy.fmhy.ml 23 points 1 year ago

I found it interesting that after such a depressing bullet-point summary of their meeting, the last paragraph was still mixed and not more negative. I wonder if they actively try to stay on Reddit's good side to not end up in Reddit's crosshairs or if that's truly how they feel.

[-] Denali@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago

Of course they're trying to stay in Reddit's good side, we already saw what happened with the Apollo dev - one small joke and they freaked out. I'd be walking on eggshells too

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[-] Thaliff@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

It's more and more sounding like they have no plan and had no idea how much they were gonna fuck up to implement this plan with no plan.

[-] Madison_rogue@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

I think I can confidently say Reddit's planning is at Star Wars Sequel Trilogy level of planning.

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[-] Sir_Digby@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

@Gamers_Mate Reddit's disregard for accessibility is truly appalling. Blind moderators are treated as an afterthought, with no timeline for accessible moderation tools. It's clear that u/spez and Reddit prioritize their own agenda over the needs of disabled users. Shameful.

[-] density@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

I think worse actually. They want to say "we are meeting with the /r/Blind mods and had a productive conversation, we are working with them, blah blah blah"

They are cynically using /r/Blind as an empty "virtue signal" type thing.

Also I saw various people suggesting ADA lawsuits. I presume this sort of thing delays that sort of action.

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[-] HidingCat@kbin.social 21 points 1 year ago

Remember, this is a company that had nearly 2k employees before the layoffs (5% of the workforce, so still 1k+), and they can't do accessiblity even at the minimum viable level.

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[-] hrimfaxi_work@midwest.social 18 points 1 year ago

I'm a disability spouse, and this aspect of the whole scenario makes me so angry. It's not that they're ignorant and dismissive of people's accessibility concerns, it's the manner in which they're ignorant and dismissive of people's accessibility concerns.

[-] MrsEaves@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago

So I noticed there was a mention of accessibility certifications in here - as a side topic, does anyone know of a trustworthy / reliable certification I could look into getting? I know about the WCAG guidelines and some basics, but I would love to get some more formalized training so that I know I’m doing the best possible job when designing or writing code, and can pass that knowledge on to others in my team.

[-] riskable@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago

I second this. I haven't got a certification in like decades but an accessibility certification sounds fantastic.

There hasn't been an IT certification I've seen in forever where I was like, "yeah I can't just go and learn that on my own" but one that's all about accessibility does sound like something I couldn't just learn on my own... since I'm not disabled/blind and don't know anyone who is.

What I really want is to learn about accessibility testing. Oh man that'd be like having a superpower! With a skill like that I'd be useful to literally any and every FOSS team that exists!

Aside: I am blind in one eye so I'm one accident away from actually being blind some day. I should learn this stuff now just in case!

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[-] wjrii@kbin.social 11 points 1 year ago

So perhaps this is tangential, but while it was clearly meant as a last-second "oh shit" move, one of the apps that is being excepted from the API charge is Dystopia for iOS. It's currently only on Apple Testflight, but they're working to get listed on the app store. I am not blind, and I have tried it, and while it's no Apollo, it's... decent. The same text-centric, simple UI that makes it work well with assistive technology also results in a pretty clean app for people who just want to read and discuss. It's also under active development.

Once it pops up in search I think some folks in the general public are going to like it better than the official app. What does Reddit do if and when their designated "blind people" app starts attracting users with no connection to the blind community? Will they allow it to continue?

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[-] Xylinna@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago
[-] CrazyEddie041@kbin.social 23 points 1 year ago

Reddit has no tools for blind users, because it never considered that they needed them.

Reddit cannot commit to creating these tools, because "we're working on accessibility" is purely a lie to placate the masses.

Reddit doesn't even know what they're supposed to be working on or what the problems are, because they simply do not care about users with disabilities.

[-] athos77@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Reddit doesn't even know what they're supposed to be working on or what the problems are, because they simply do not care about users with disabilities.

That's hardly fair. They clearly care even less about moderators with disabilities!

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[-] seditiouslizard@kbin.social 22 points 1 year ago

Reddit: "we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!"

[-] IninewCrow@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Best TL:DR I've read in a while ... thanks

[-] Davel23@kbin.social 17 points 1 year ago

Lots of lip-service from Reddit, very little in the way of actual solutions.

[-] kestrel7@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago

When 3rd party apps are blocked on July 1st, Reddit is no longer going to support accessibility features that blind mods and users need. Reddit's owners don't seem to have considered how much work it's going to be to provide said features "in-house."

[-] OPHanma@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago

Chat GPT generated summary:

_The moderators of the r/blind subreddit recently had a meeting with Reddit representatives to discuss accessibility concerns. While Reddit demonstrated some accessible designs, there were serious issues that the representatives couldn't address. They didn't provide timelines for accessible moderation tools, seemed unaware of blind moderators' reliance on third-party apps, and refused to share information about employee qualifications and the details of the accessibility audit. This lack of knowledge and transparency raised doubts about Reddit's commitment to accessibility. The moderators hope their concerns will be addressed promptly to ensure an effective and accessible future for the subreddit.

In summary, the meeting highlighted Reddit's prioritization of user accessibility over moderator accessibility, the lack of knowledge and transparency regarding accessibility efforts, and the absence of firm commitments for improvements. The moderators remain open to dialogue but express frustration and concern about the platform's accessibility and its impact on the r/blind community._

[-] density@kbin.social 13 points 1 year ago

Reddit demonstrated some accessible designs

no they didn't

, the meeting highlighted Reddit's prioritization of user accessibility over moderator accessibility,

wrong, they aren't caring about anyone's accessibility

tldr: reading the last paragraph (traditionally known as a "conclusion") would be more useful than reading dumb bullshit chat gpt

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[-] density@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

Reddit does not know what it does not know, and this lack of knowledge is exasperating, disheartening, and exhausting. We also came away frustrated that Reddit representatives were either unwilling or unable to answer prudent and pertinent questions which would allow us to determine not only how we can best keep our community safe and healthy, but also whether Reddit is truly prepared to commit to ensuring accessibility for all disabled users both now and in the future.

[-] blightbow@kbin.social 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Edit: Recalling terrible dad joke because it wasn't obvious enough I was making fun of the Reddit admins.

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this post was submitted on 20 Jun 2023
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