this post was submitted on 22 Jun 2023

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men

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This magazine is dedicated to discussions of issues that men and boys face, especially disadvantages or discrimination due to their gender, from an egalitarian perspective.

founded 2 years ago

Welcome to /m/men! (kbin.social)

submitted 2 years ago by a-man-from-earth@kbin.social to c/men@kbin.social

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I just stepped down as moderator from all five of the subreddits I used to moderate over on Reddit. I just can't ethically justify continued activity on Reddit, and especially free volunteer labour for an openly greedy company that is engaged in scummy behaviour, forcing mods to open protesting communities or be demoted.

So my online activism for boys and men is now focused here and on Mastodon. And I am welcoming everyone coming over from Reddit, especially from LeftWingMaleAdvocates, the sub I put in the majority of my time and effort as a mod.

Let's build something good here, as we did previously on Reddit. It appears we have a wider reach here, so let's debate in good faith and with civil manners.

Here, in this magazine (i.e. community or subreddit in Kbin-speak) we wish to discuss and spread awareness of various issues that disproportionately affect males.

We believe men are not being well-served by either side of the mainstream political spectrum. We oppose the right wing's exploitation of men's issues as a wedge to recruit men to inegalitarian traditional values. But we also oppose feminist attempts to deny male issues, or shoehorn them into a biased ideology that blames "male privilege" and guilt-trips men.

We have no objection to the genuinely egalitarian aspects of feminism, but we will criticize feminist ideology wherever it is inegalitarian and/or untruthful, especially now that it holds institutional power. Too often feminism has promoted a one-sided "equality", dismantling male advantages while exploiting, reinforcing, preserving, and downplaying female advantages - particularly in cases involving alleged abuse.

In practice this means that most of us are politically homeless. The natural home for male advocacy should be the left wing, which professes to be explicitly egalitarian. But in modern practice, men's issues are habitually ignored, denied, or even opposed.

We seek to address male issues without falling into the traps of an impossible return to the past or a disastrous sexism. Men and women have equal value, and we need to work together for a better future.

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[–] SentientRock209@kbin.social 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Would it be in bad taste to repost some of the archived posts from leftwingmaleadvocates?

Even though they're old I think they still hold a lot of relevance for this community and hold a lot of insight to start interesting conversarions.

[–] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 6 points 2 years ago

I think that's fine, as long as you give credit. I've already reposted some.

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

alright, i guess. i don't entirely disagree, though I did feel like I was reading a MGTOW post with some words swapped out.

Your phrase; "The natural home for male advocacy" [is x on the political spectrum] is a strange phrase, and familiar, and formulaic.

Try humanism, and love

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I bet you wouldn't feel the same about a "home for female advocacy". Men need safe spaces too.

Note: including safe from right-wing exploitation.

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

do you feel the "home for female advocacy" belongs somewhere on a political spectrum?

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Yeah, I think the left wing generally espouses tolerance and equality, so anyone saying "hey, this group is being marginalized, we should fix that" should naturally find a home in the left wing. The right wing is more about rigid hierarchy and "this is the way the world is ordered, don't challenge it".

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

sorry you did answer, i hope you are well

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

Thanks, you too!

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

I asked, and you did not answer, the question was,

do you feel the "home for female advocacy" belongs somewhere on a political spectrum?

[–] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It is definitely not a MGTOW post. I explicitly say: "Men and women have equal value, and we need to work together for a better future."

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

friend, I'm on your side. boys need support, as do girls, as does everyone whom you might have ignored

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

"men and women have equal value". what? why are we comparing men vs. women? what is the "value"?

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chcc_Ci36Vw

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I love Feist!

what!?

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It really is an excellent song, she's very talented.

I was making a reference to sealioning

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago

this has been very educational, but I did not mean to troll.

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 5 points 2 years ago (2 children)

How do you / did your community feel about the MensLib community?

[–] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 20 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I appreciate that they try to highlight some male issues. But they subjugate them to feminist ideology, which I think is the wrong approach. They control the conversation very tightly and do not allow general criticism of feminism (especially the widespread misandry), nor specific topics such as legal paternal surrender. For that reason I consider the MensLib sub "controlled opposition". Even tho many members may have the heart in the right place, there is a high degree of self-censorship going on. Or you find yourself, as I did, quietly shadowbanned.

[–] Aesthesiaphilia@kbin.social 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints (side note, this is my first time really reading reddit in a while and it's crazy how many accounts have been overwritten or [deleted]). I was active in the early redpill community, years ago, and watched in horror as it got taken over by right-wing protofascists. So I'm a little gun shy when it comes to men's spaces. I think, getting meta for a moment, there's something to be said for policing your own community a little over-zealously to keep out the misogynists...but then again, there's also something to be said for being honest in your beliefs, even if that means alienating an ally (like feminists).

I've subscribed and I'll keep a close eye on this community. You've got a difficult job; there's a lot of angry, misogynistic men and angry, misandrist tumblristas in the fediverse who would love to take over the discussion.

[–] Dienervent@kbin.social 11 points 2 years ago

Hopefully it will be like the subreddits he moderated. They turned out quite nicely. Unapologetically advocating for men from an egalitarian perspective while also being unapologetic about defending against the misandrist detractors, a large number of whom call themselves feminists and leverage feminist ideology.

[–] assclapcalamity@kbin.social 2 points 2 years ago

" there's a lot of angry, misogynistic men and angry, misandrist tumblristas in the fediverse who would love to take over the discussion."

drop that weirdness

[–] rikersbeard@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

They hosted an AMA with a guy who minimizes/denies that men can be victims of women aggressors. They tried to walk back some of the stuff he said, but didn’t outright apologize. They censor/minimize/deny a lot of other men’s issues. They are counterfeit, perhaps even a calculated disinformation campaign to co-opt the men’s movement.

[–] Sorchist@kbin.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

You seem to have an extremely specific take on men's issues, insisting you're not one of those men's rights guys but nonetheless taking a dim view of feminism except when you deem it sufficiently egalitarian and uncritical, I dunno about grabbing the whole concept/namespace of "men" and dedicating it to that. But ya did it, so good luck with it.

[–] vlakas@kbin.social 10 points 2 years ago

What exactly should we have done then? I only claim to speak for myself; in an ideal world I would love to work with feminists, but we're having conversations here that are not permitted in feminist spaces, so we need our own space for that. I hope you'll be open minded and do a little reading here to see what we're about.

[–] random_sm@kbin.social 5 points 2 years ago (1 children)

The fediverse is the future

[–] vlakas@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

This place on Kbin already seems to have more activity than the old r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates did. That place is basically dead now. It's a shame it fractured the community, but at least this place won't be upended in the future by a greedy and clueless corporation.

[–] Hyacathusarullistad@kbin.social 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Re: your stance of feminism and its role in the betterment of the lives of men.

I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the primary problem at the core of most issues facing men today is the narrow, unrealistic, and frankly unhealthy image of masculinity that our society expects us to strive for. And I have to imagine that the (or at least a) goal of any sensible male advocacy group would be to push back against the notion that a man who doesn't meet this single societal ideal of manliness has failed to be a man.

However, I also don't think it can be dismissed as coincidence that so many of the words used to belittle men and boys who behave in ways they're not "supposed" to imply femininity.

"Don't be such a pussy."

"That guy's a little bitch."

"Haha, he cried like a girl!"

Would you not agree that one of the most powerful ways to go about robbing these types of sentiments of their power over young boys is to help feminists destigmatise simply being a girl or a woman? Most issues facing men aren't because women are being given advantages, but because men face the disadvantage of not being allowed to adopt roles or attitudes deemed beneath us — just as women are not allowed to adopt roles and attitudes deemed beyond their place.

I firmly believe that feminism, if truly successful, will allow men the freedom to be who and what they want to be because "masculine"/"feminine" will no longer equate to "good"/"bad" or "strong"/"weak".

[–] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

How could feminism in any way give men "the freedom to be who and what they want" when they portray men as the problem? Feminism is toxic to healthy masculinity and healthy gender relations.

[–] grahamsz@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I think you are conflating men as a group with men as individuals. I think Russia is terrible, but I've met many lovely Russian people.

While I can't speak for feminists, I think when they say "men are the problem" that's shorthand for a system that generally pays men more, expects them to take on less domestic responsibilities, allows them to vote away women's rights, and all of the other longstanding injustices.

[–] KevinRambutan@kbin.social 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The difference between feminism (or even feminists) and men is that the former is a movement or a chosen label, while the latter is not something one can choose to be. So when you generalize the latter (“men are pigs”, “men are responsible for the world’s problems”, or even “Kill All Men”), it really comes across as outright hateful. At least more so than criticizing a movement (feminism) or generalizing feminists (although I don’t believe in doing that too). Seriously, if you were to replace “men” with “blacks”, or even “women” in feminist drivel, you’d be (rightfully) called out for spreading hate. For how much feminism pushes inclusivity and careful, considerate use in language (think: using ‘police officer’ instead of ‘policeman’), when it comes to men, they just give fuck all.

And for the ‘wage gap’, it should really be renamed the ‘earnings gap’ as for the same amount and type of work, men and women are generally paid the same. The main reason there’s a gap is that men generally work more and in higher paying fields. Now why they choose to do so is certainly worth discussion, but to frame it as men being paid more with the insinuation that they both do the same amount of work, is disingenuous.

Men taking on less domestic responsibilities is part of gender roles, no? In exchange they are expected to earn more by working more. Not to mention when you say domestic responsibilities, I doubt you include male dominated tasks like mowing the lawn, or fixing the car. Again, framing it as one-sided privilege (‘men have the privilege of doing less house work”) is disingenuous. I don’t think housekeeping or child-rearing, which is female-dominated, is a walk in the park either, for reference.

If you believe the system allows specifically men to vote away women’s rights (abortions I believe?), and that men shouldn’t have a say in that. Do you also believe women shouldn’t have a say in voting on issues like Selective Service or even conscription, in some countries, that primarily or uniquely affect men? Furthermore, in many countries, women are outright born with the right to vote, whereas men have to sign up for Selective Service or Conscription (what happened to ‘My Body, My Choice’?)

E: grammar

[–] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I think you are conflating men as a group with men as individuals.

I don't, but most feminists do.

I think when they say "men are the problem" that's shorthand for a system

Then they should blame society, not men as a group. Most men don't have any more influence on the system than most women do.

And what do you think constant negative messaging about men as a group being the problem does to the minds of boys growing up? Are you surprised many of them go down the alt-right radicalization pipeline?

a system that generally pays men more

I don't know where this is true, but certainly not in Western countries, where such discrimination by gender is illegal.

expects them to take on less domestic responsibilities

More a question of expecting men to take on different domestic responsibilities, on top of expecting men to be the primary providers.

allows them to vote away women's rights

Instead, men overwhelmingly voted for granting women equal rights.

and all of the other longstanding injustices

You mean injustices such as conscription, age of retirement, homelessness, etc?

[–] grahamsz@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't, but most feminists do.

Most of the feminists I know are straight and either married or partnered - they clearly don't hate all men. Some maybe do, but I don't think it's the majority.

I don't know where this is true, but certainly not in Western countries, where such discrimination by gender is illegal.

I'm in the US and it's absolutely endemic. Women still make significantly less than men on average and gender discrimination is baked right into jobs. My city starts teachers at $56k and police officers at $70k - one of those jobs requires a GED and the other requires a Bachelors degree. Even with a Master's teachers can make as little as $61k - and that's entirely because it's traditionally a "women's job". Can you name any male dominated field where most workers have a master's degree and make that little?

Europe's maybe a little better, but there's still no country where women outearn men - if there really was equality there you'd expect to see that look more like a bell curve.

[–] a-man-from-earth@kbin.social 3 points 2 years ago

Most of the feminists I know are straight and either married or partnered - they clearly don't hate all men.

Most feminists collectivize men as "the patriarchy" and hold them collectively accountable for a host of societal problems. And whenever an individual man misbehaves, they often immediately link that back to the patriarchal collective.

You may not recognize that as hate, but what is effectively the difference?

Women still make significantly less than men on average

Not for the same job with the same responsibilities, working the same hours. If women want to make the same or more than men, then they can step up and do the same jobs for the same hours as men.

My city starts teachers at $56k and police officers at $70k

Even taking school shootings into account, one of these jobs is significantly more dangerous than the other and requires shift work. And again, if women want to make more money, then they should become police officers instead of teachers... Who's stopping them?

there's still no country where women outearn men

That's because men are still expected to be the primary providers. And unfortunately that's not something easily changed. Most women expect that, and feel ill at ease when roles are reversed. Do you really want to force women into dangerous or strenuous high-earning jobs? Or maybe we can respect our men more who bring home the bacon, so to say?