Building on 2022/23: how Arsenal's new signings will fit in (goonertalk.com)

submitted 1 year ago by ThePowerOfGeek@lemmy.world to c/gunners@lemmy.world

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[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

In a deeper role, Havertz continued to excel in terms of ball progression and defensive work compared to his peers

That's not what the graph says. The graph says that compared to other central midfielders, Havertz managed very few tackles and virtually no interceptions. The only defensive actions he did well on was clearances and aerial duels, presumably using his height during defensive corners, etc.

The player he's presumably replacing (Xhaka) played his entire career as a central midfielder, and only in his last season really ventured forward to play a bit more as an attacking midfielder. When Xhaka was Havertz's age, he didn't use great judgement when doing his midfield defensive duties, but at least he knew it was his job and did it with enthusiasm. As far as I can tell, Havertz hasn't played much as a central midfielder. For Bayer Leverkusen, he started as a CAM and then played for a while as a striker. For Chelsea he was always played as an attacker, mostly a striker.

The main concern I have with him is whether he can successfully do the defensive basics: marking, intercepting and tackling as a central midfielder.

[-] MutualityWSDEs@social.coop 2 points 1 year ago

@merc @ThePowerOfGeek
Isn't the idea that Rice picks up the defensive slack instead of KH reinventing himself?

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

You can't have one player taking over the defensive responsibility of the entire midfield.

The system was balanced last year with a midfield 3 of Odegaard, Xhaka and Partey. Partey played very defensively, Xhaka played like a box-to-box player doing some attacking and some defending. Odegaard played as an attacker who also harried and pressed in transition phases.

Even if Rice is better defensively than Partey (and I don't think that's necessarily true), it's a lot of burden to place on any one player.

[-] Gingerrific@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

For this year I think Rice replaces Xhaka and we use either Partey or Jorginho in the DM role, while Kai spends most of his time playing along the front 3 until he is fully integrated into the role of Xhaka.

In two/three years I can see Rice moving into that DM role if neither Partey or Jorginho are up to par.

And just a side note. Wasn't Cazorla an AM who transitioned into the CM role rather well?

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

I don't think you pay that much for a 24 year old and don't immediately have them in the starting line-up.

Cazorla was a winger who became a CAM when he lost a bit of his pace. Eventually he transitioned to a CM role in his late 20s (maybe even early 30s, I can't remember). Late 20s is when you can expect attackers to sometimes be able to adapt to a defensive role. Wingers switch to fullbacks, CAMs become CMs, etc. By that time they have enough experience to read the defensive side of the game well, and know their positioning.

But, even with Cazorla, he was at his best when he was paired with a very defensive player. His best year he was next to Coquelin who was basically nothing but a midfield destroyer.

[-] MutualityWSDEs@social.coop 0 points 1 year ago

@merc
Rodri does this job ok enough although I agree it's a big burden.

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Rodri mostly plays in a midfield with Gundogan and De Bruyne.

Gundogan makes almost as many interceptions as Rodri: 0.9/90 for Rodri, 0.8/90 for Gundogan. It makes sense because at Dortmund under Klopp Gundogan was a defensive midfielder.

While De Bruyne isn't as much of a CM as the other two, he's an experienced, 32 year old player who has played in central midfield for a long time, so he knows his position and what's expected of him.

I think a Havertz, Rice, Odegaard midfield would be dangerously weak defensively. Odegaard is learning to be a better defender, but he's still better as someone who presses and harries, rather than someone who sits and cuts off passing lanes. Havertz played a little bit as a CM for Leverkusen before he was 20, but for most of his career he's been a second striker or a striker.

Besides, at Man City, the midfield doesn't spend much time defending. They're probably the best team on the planet right now, and most of their opponents will sit back and only rarely attack. Arsenal is a good team and will force most teams to defend, but not to the same extent. Because of that, Arsenal can't get away with a midfield that is so attacking.

[-] raumdeuter@arsenalfc.social 2 points 1 year ago

@merc @ThePowerOfGeek IIRC Odegaard wasn't a top-of-mind defender when he first joined and he's gotten better in that regard

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago

Better, sure. But, he was still the member of the midfield 3 with the fewest defensive responsibilities. Often when Arsenal was defending he was up front with the striker in a 4-4-2, harassing the opposing defenders / GKs while Xhaka lined up next to Partey.

What happens next season, does Odegaard line up next to Partey / Rice while Havertz lines up next to the striker? If so, that's a lot of new responsibility on Odegaard. Or is it Havertz who lines up deeper, defending as a CM for one of the first times in his professional career?

[-] Never_Sm1le@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Really doubt about Havertz but hope he can prove me wrong

[-] MutualityWSDEs@social.coop -2 points 1 year ago

@Never_Sm1le @ThePowerOfGeek
Cannot be worse than Xhaka, even if he is literally worse than Xhaka: he is not Xhaka and that's what matters most to me.

Now for Holding and Nketieh - I won't fully buy in until all the long-term mediocrity and deadwood is gone.