@BartrandDuGuesclin @monty33

Have you tried Proton Docs? While not the exact same thing as Standard Notes, the editing and history seems to be quite similar. All "notes" files are stored in Proton Drive too.

Or are there other features in Standard Notes not to be found in the Proton suite?

@Telodzrum

Here. I found a suitable profile picture for you.

@case2tv @Nelizea

Proton and Tuta has similar challenges most others don't care about (including FastMail) - End to End Encryption. That itself is a pretty hard nut to crack. FastMail and similar services don't need to think about that, which makes their services simpler.

I would also not claim that Tuta has a quicker development cycle. They had a round recently where more features were highlighted. But that's an exception. I've had a Tuta account for years as well, to test it out, and both the webmail and Android app is still not that feature rich.

And Proton delivers new features and updated apps quite regularly now compared to just a few years ago. Can it be better? Yes, of course. But still, they are doing alot than just 2-3 years ago. And 2-3 years was even better than the years before that.

Also consider that Proton delivers on a broad range of products and services. Mail, Calendar, Drive, Pass and VPN. Tuta basically has Mail and Calendar, where both of these Tuta services being fairly reduced in features still.

My experience (mostly using Mail and a little bit Drive these days) is that Protons releaes are also pretty solid. It's extremely seldom I'm hit by bugs these days. To have that kind of quality requires quite some QA efforts. I'm not claiming the other services are equally good, but Mail and Drive is now very stable - and Mail is especially crucial for my 15-20+ users abd myself.

Finally, Proton serves more than 100 million users by now. Tuta has reached a bit over 10 million, IIRC. That requires Proton to have more staff on support and operations tasks. So even if Proton has more than 400 employees, that's not 400 developers.

@unruhe @Nelizea @nailoC5

Can you elaborate more on how other distributions deviate and what the "invent" on their own?

@Nelizea @nailoC5

I need to look at that video (thx for the time marker). So my comment may miss his point.

If Linux is so hard, I wonder how Tresorit manages it quite nicely across multiple distros. They use fuse to mount the remote repository.

And the file attributes on files/dirs have a standardised API via libc and kernel syscalls. This is needed for the sync capabilities, to have data locally and in Drive. These APIs are identical across all distributions and are file system agnostic. Otherwise the tar command would have had a really hard challenge to be so widely useful for both file distribution as well as backups.

But I'll catch up on the video later.

@case2tv @unruhe @Tutanota @protonprivacy

A while ago, I summarised my mailbox.org impression ... https://infosec.exchange/@dazo/111453908525787194

TL;DR ... Proton is way ahead of most competitors in overall user experience and ease of use, and yet providing a pretty good feature set.

@unruhe @protonprivacy

I thought a bit more on these complaints since this post. And I realised these complaints can also be ignored by applying some basic mathematics and common sense.

Proton has more than 100 million users by now. So let's say 100 million in this example. How many public complaints would it need to be from these users to really "catch fire"? Meaning - how often do you read about complaints and from how many users? More than 100.000 users? Okay. Let's say there are 1 million dissatisfied users.

If half of that million users complained loudly on the Internet, I would say that would probably be quite noticeable. Media would most likely pick it up, and it would brew up to media storm right?

Have you noticed anything like that? Do you see that many users complaining?

And if yes, that would still only represent 0.5% of the whole user base of Proton. If you include the other half complaining "silently", it would represent 1% of the Proton users.

That still leaves 99% users which are at least to some degree satisfied with Proton.

Even if you pull it up to 20 million dissatisfied users, they would still be in the minority compared to users finding Proton's services being just fine. And 20 million dissatisfied users - that would definitely have caused some media traction, don't you think?

@amju_wolf

They could even have a Fedora Copr repo, where they push out the updated .spec file and get a proper package build for all Fedora, RHEL/CentOS and more distros. With proper RPM packaging and repository. Push a new build and all users gets an updated package at their next update cycle.

That's a reasonable path to get started with preparing packages to become part of the native yum/dnf repos at least. And that across a lot of distributions and releases in a single go.

@amju_wolf @alex_herrero

Yupp, that's my understanding as well.

But Proton also insists on doing the packaging and distribution of it outside the ordinary distribution paths Linux distros uses (apt/yum/dnf repos or flatpak) ... So they waste time and energy on getting stuff working properly across a broader range of Linux distributions.

The end result will therefore most likely be a poorer user experience where some features don't work well on some distros. Depending on how their "package" will manage to integrate on the distro installing it.

@unruhe @Tutanota @protonprivacy

Give both a shot. Both are the only ones (I know of) having zero storage access as the only option; meaning #e2ee is enforced. You may have mailbox.org as a third one (E2EE must be enabled manually there).

I ended up with Proton as I experienced it far more feature rich, flexible and mature. And the Bridge is a must for my use case. In addition, it builds on PGP which can be used to have E2EE communication with people outside of Proton. (yes, I've tried Mailvelope with Tuta; that does not work at all. And doing it manually with copy/paste and PGP in an ordinary text esitor is a waste of time and also turned out error prone one the receiving end; Tuta mails gets mangled on the way).

But if you're a very lightweight mail user, Tuta might fit your need. I generally think of Tuta more like a messenger service with SMTP transport support.

Also beware, importing mails to Tuta is still not possible (unless that has changed the last months). And exporting mails are also a mess. I have migrated one user from Tuta to Proton, and I had to manually fix mail headers to get them imported. The mail export was quite poor, tbh. It took me longer than importing a handful of users from a Zimbra server to Proton - using the same Proton Mail Import/Export tool.

Finally, I just want to mention that Tuta is a company with less than 20-30 employees, serving something like 10 million users. Proton is probably closer to 500 employees these days, serving more than 100 million users. So these organisations are quite different. Which also means they have quite different approaches for developing services further and capabilities to handle sudden challenges.

@LinkOpensChest_wav @helenslunch

I've done the self-hosting of e-mail for over a decade. But it got so annoying and troublesome in the end it was a delight to migrate to Proton (because of all the spammers making this whole e-mail infrastructure a nightmare).

Incoming e-mail is still doable for self-hosting. But outgoing is getting incredibly hard when you're a tiny actor; you get blocked by all these larger mail providers (gmail, hotmail/outlook.com, yahoo) and your just lucky if you're able to get in touch with anyone willing to look into the issues. Most times you get a mail template back claiming a bad IP address/range reputation (despite being able to document it several years back). The worst one even claimed I did aggressive marketing spam (which would be absurd for the handful users I served, used it for private emailing). And then they close the support ticket and ignore you.

Proton is definitely big enough to fight back such abusive behaviours by these large actors.

@alex_herrero

🤪​