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[-] Shard@lemmy.world 80 points 5 months ago

Physical proof? No. But if that's the criterion for proof that someone existed, then that mean 90% of historical figures can't be proven to have existed. We don't have the remains of Alexander the Great or any artefacts we can be sure are his. We have no remnants of Plato, none of his original writings remain.

Did a person name Jesus live sometime during the first century AD? Scholars are fairly certain of that. We do have textual evidence other than the bible that points to his existence.

It is highly unlikely that he was anything like the person written about in the bible. He was likely one of many radical apocalyptic prophets of the time.

We don't have too many details about his life but because of something called the criterion of embarrassment we have good reason to believe he was baptized by a man named John the Baptist and was later crucified. (i.e. most burgeoning religions seeking legitimacy don't typically invent stories that are embarrassing to their deity)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

[-] KneeTitts@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

then that mean 90% of historical figures can’t be proven to have existed

Well for most of those we tend to use independent verification for their existence. And in the case of jesus, we have literally zero Credible examples of independent verification.

[-] aidan@lemmy.world 27 points 5 months ago

And in the case of jesus, we have literally zero independent verification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

[-] KneeTitts@lemmy.world 24 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Even assuming the passage is totally genuine, two fires had destroyed much in the way of official documents Tacitus had to work with and it is unlikely that he would sift through what he did have to find the record of an obscure crucifixion, which suggests that Tacitus was repeating an urban myth whose source was likely the Christians themselves,[3]:344 especially since Tacitus was writing at a time when at least the three synoptic gospels are thought to already have been in circulation.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tacitus

According to Bart Ehrman, Josephus' passage about Jesus was altered by a Christian scribe, including the reference to Jesus as the Messiah

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Scholars have differing opinions on the total or partial authenticity of the reference in the passage to the execution of Jesus by Pontius Pilate.[15][30] The general scholarly view is that while the Testimonium Flavianum is most likely not authentic.

Respected Christian scholar R. T. France, for example, does not believe that the Tacitus passage provides sufficient independent testimony for the existence of Jesus [Franc.EvJ, 23] and agrees with G. A. Wells that the citation is of little value

A. The first line of the Tacitus passage says Chrestians, not Christians.

Suetonius says Chrestus was personally starting trouble in Rome during the reign of Claudius.

Suetonius is writing years after Tacitus yet doesn't mention that Chrestus died.

So Chrestus can't be Jesus because it's the wrong decade, wrong continent and missing a death.

B. The second line in Tacitus that mentions Christ and his death was never noticed until after the mid-fourth century. So this second line is fake.

P.S. Even if the second line was somehow authentic, the information would have come from Christians. This would be the equivalent of deriving Abraham's biography by talking to Muslims.

This is why Bart Ehrman specifically dismisses Tacitus and Josephus. As do most other biblical scholars.

In the immortal words of Christopher Hitchens, if this is all you got, you are holding an empty bag.

[-] aidan@lemmy.world 0 points 5 months ago

Even assuming the passage is totally genuine, two fires had destroyed much in the way of official documents Tacitus had to work with and it is unlikely that he would sift through what he did have to find the record of an obscure crucifixion

Why? If it was a popular myth, why assume he wouldn't try to confirm/deny it

According to Bart Ehrman, Josephus' passage about Jesus was altered by a Christian scribe, including the reference to Jesus as the Messiah

So? I'm not presenting evidence for him being a Messiah. I am saying there is some independent evidence of him existing.

B. The second line in Tacitus that mentions Christ and his death was never noticed until after the mid-fourth century. So this second line is fake.

I agree that is bizarre, but not proof of it being fake. Though should be taken with a grain of salt.

This is why Bart Ehrman specifically dismisses Tacitus and Josephus. As do most other biblical scholars.

Who is Bart Ehrman and why relay his beliefs rather than speak for yourself?

[-] Shard@lemmy.world 26 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

If you mean Jesus as described word for word in the bible? Yes you are right. Such a mythical figure never existed.

A man name Jesus from the first century AD? Who preached in the Levant? Who was baptized by a man named John and was later crucified? There is good enough evidence of such a person existing. This isn't even a debated question among new testament scholars anymore.

I see you are familiar with Bart Ehrman, Even he doesn't dispute that a historical Jesus existed.

https://youtu.be/43mDuIN5-ww

Here's an even deeper dive from Bart Ehrman.

https://youtu.be/4CD5DwrgWJ4

[-] darthskull@lemmy.ca -4 points 5 months ago

We do have textual evidence other than the bible that points to his existence.

Idk why you would need textual evidence besides the Bible to be certain the guy existed. It's not like these are magical books that sprung from the earth. They have historical reasons for existing and the most likely reason includes the existence of the dude.

this post was submitted on 23 Jun 2024
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