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submitted 3 months ago by BluJay320@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone

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[-] Zacryon@lemmy.wtf 8 points 3 months ago

The child can still consider taking the one-way exit as soon as it is able to make such considerations and thereby gets a choice.

You could ask in a similar manner:
Wouldn't it be immoral to disallow this decision making process by leaving the child no choice by not having it?

Asking for consent of an unborn is paradoxial and inherently impossible. It's almost like asking a plant whether it consents into being planted and eaten afterwards. It has no agency. Is it immoral though to plant it and eat it anyway?

Having a child is similar. Get it, let it grow and develop its agency. Then it can decide for itself.

[-] Thrillhouse@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

So the answer boils down to kill yourself when you turn 18 bud? That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.

Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.

[-] Zacryon@lemmy.wtf 3 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.

Which is - at least to some extent - a culturally formed perception. We know cultures where suicide was not frowned upon nor was seen as an inherently bad thing. For example:

Harakiri / Seppuku: ritual suicide commited by Samurais (and later officers during WWII) (lazily taken from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku ) as a way to restore or uphold their or their families' honour.
Ättestupa, sites with cliff-like rock formations in Sweden where old people threw themselves off in order to not burden their community. (There are quite a number of examples regarding such kinds of senicides in different cultures. Currently this is also a topic regarding assisted suicide for (old) people who are severly ill with no realistic hopes of improvement.)

This proves that it can be possible to embrace such decisions of mature adolescents, be it for life or against it.

Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.

We can turn this easily around: If you're unsure whether someone would consent to not being born, the answer is no and therefore they should be born.
But more importantly, to ask that question at all is already built on a erroneous premise, in my opinion: The unborn child has no sufficient agency to form an opinion about this question. It is therefore pointless to ask it. The ability to make such decisions comes with time and maturity of the child. Until this level is reached, you could also deny plants and even stones their existence because you are not able to ask them whether they want to exist at all. They have about the same level of agency as an unborn child.

[-] Thrillhouse@lemmy.world 5 points 3 months ago

Yeah I just don’t think having a kid under the premise “well you can kill yourself later” is a really great argument. And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.

Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives.

I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death.

I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already. Why guarantee suffering in another person.

[-] Zacryon@lemmy.wtf 1 points 3 months ago

And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.

Which is an important practial limiation of course. But I'm currently discussing this on the level of the underlying ethical principle, less on the level of practical implications, because the latter could possibly be changed by forming an appropriate mindset in our society.

Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives. I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death. [...] Why guarantee suffering in another person.

Sure, but would it be equally okay to deny someone their shot at joy? Even without (much) joy, some might see the suffering as part of their journey, a part of the experience of life which they could still prefer to not being born at all. We never know until we can ask and expect an answer to that question.

I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already.

And it's totally okay for me if these are your reasons for not having children. I agree with a multitude of reasons why someone want's to be childless. So I hope you don't get me wrong here. I don't give a fuck whether someone wants or doesn't want children. It's their life and their decision regardless of their reasons. I just find the topic of natalism interesting from a philosophical point of view.