332
MBFC Credibility - High
(lemmy.world)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024
332 points (84.3% liked)
A Boring Dystopia
9522 readers
2017 users here now
Pictures, Videos, Articles showing just how boring it is to live in a dystopic society, or with signs of a dystopic society.
Rules (Subject to Change)
--Be a Decent Human Being
--Posting news articles: include the source name and exact title from article in your post title
--Posts must have something to do with the topic
--Zero tolerance for Racism/Sexism/Ableism/etc.
--No NSFW content
--Abide by the rules of lemmy.world
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Nyt and Guardian seem fine, (in)directly quoting the idf.
It's "strange" how imperial propaganda is always quoting the IDF but never the resistance.
I see a lot of articles quote the Gaza health ministry about casualty statistics
He said the resistance not the doctors.
The Gaza health ministry is run by the government of Gaza
Officially. In reality, the vast majority of the Gazan hospitals* from where they count the dead are controlled by the UN through UNRWA.
*Of which there's none fully functional, which is why we haven't gotten up to date counts for at least a couple months. Which is 50% of the reason why the IDF specifically targets hospitals and healthcare workers, of course.
The israeli ministry of health is ran by israel.
Wait...did you just completely miss the point?
There was no point to miss.
There was a very clear and simple point. I'm not sure how it's possible, but the fact that you don't think there was not just means you did, and continue to, miss it.
What is the point in claiming that Palestinian doctors are valid military targets for the IDF to murder?
Wow, this is just a disgustingly blatant lie about what was said. At no point did they even come close to saying anything about valid military targets, let alone doctors being one.
You're welcome to explain what he meant if it's not 'doctors are part of the resistance'.
I meant that the Gaza ministry of health is a part of the government of Gaza, which is what I assumed you meant by the resistance. Not every part of a government is a valid military target. Bombing doctors is a war crime and a part of genocide.
Your reply;
Good job, you figured out how to quote comments
You're so smart
The problem isn't them quoting it. The problem is passing along the blatant misinformation as truth. Why are you using their words when it's very clearly wrong?
I'm reading this thread in awe, as I can't see what this 'blatant misinformation' is that everyone sees so clearly
Hezbollah planned a large rocket attack and Israel attacked them first... How is this disputed?
The misinformation is that Israel is claiming they were forced to attack first due to Hezbollahs aggression. When in fact Israel is directly responsible for escalating this conflict for several months now, and Hezbollah has been showing a lot of restraint.
Hezbollah is the one who started firing missiles into Israel because of the war in Gaza. They could you know just not attack Israel. Then nothing would happen.
One look at your account and it's clear you're some kind of paid troll. 2 weeks old, 22 posts, 92 comments. A lot of it is pro-Israel and Zionism. Not even going to bother entertaining your comment.
I wish I was paid.
Someone with a different perspective than me must be a paid troll, is of course easier than actually engaging and learning something.
Then start applying buddy. You definitely got the engagement and looking the other way down. I don't have a problem engaging in conversation. I have a problem when people try to deflect the issue at hand.
Are you denying Hezbollah was planning, and executed, a large rocket strike?
Where did I say that?
What would you do if you knew some group of religious nuts was going to fire a barrage of rockets at you?
Maybe not antagonize them for months by firing rockets at them?
You do realize that it was Hezbollah that started firing over the border back in October?
Got a source for that?
Sure
https://www.npr.org/2023/12/19/1219748268/lebanon-hezbollah-israel-hamas-iran-war
Those 2 have been trading rockets for a lot longer than since October.
Why would you state Israel was the one responsible for the escalation of hostilities in recent months and Hezbollah as the one showing restraint if you don't really care who started?
There's a difference between what they regularly do and what Israel has been doing the past few months. They've regularly hit populated areas, assassinated key members, etc. The US had to even talk them down from attacking Hezbollah a few months ago. It's clear Israel is the one escalating the conflict.
Are you saying that (before October?) Hezbollah was 'regularly' attacking Israel and Israel would refrain from retaliating? Do you have a source to back this up?
(Even then, your idea that the side starting such hostilities is the one showing restraint and the one responding is the one escalating is pretty messed up)
When did I say Israel was refraining from retaliating?
Well you said there's a difference with what they used to do 'regularly' in these situations
So if them now retaliating after Hezbollah attacks is what makes it different, that would suggest you're implying that they weren't doing that in the past
The norm is small rocket fires between them close to the border. The difference is now Israel is attacking populated areas and performing assassinations.
But the 'assassination in a populated area' that you're referring to was in itself a retaliation for a rocket strike on a populated area (that killed 12 kids)
By your own logic, wouldn't that mean it was Hezbollah that started the escalation by targeting those children?
Hezbollah has literally denied involvement in that:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/27/israel-says-10-killed-in-rocket-attack-on-occupied-golan-heights
I know you're going to sit there and ask me "Why would you believe them?". I believe them because they would never be hesitant to admit they hit Israel. Besides, it's not their style. Just look at the most recent attack, they attacked the military base and avoided civilian areas:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/25/five-key-takeaways-from-nasrallahs-speech-after-hezbollah-israel-attacks
Israel on the other hand has shown no hesitation attacking children and civilians and there's decades of events to point to to prove this statement.
So my question to you is this: Why are you so intent on dismissing the actions of Israel? You seem to be putting a lot of effort into it.
You believe Hezbollah would gladly claim they killed some kids playing soccer? I guess you also believe that rocket materialized out of thin air right above them
Which actions of Israel do you think I am dismissing?
When has Hezbollah ever been shy about hating and attacking Israel?
This entire comment thread is you refusing to see how Israel is escalating the conflict. Instead you choose to intentionally miss how Israel is "pre-emptively" (I'm using this term ironically, don't believe for a second I believe it to be true) attacking other nations, assassinating key figures and antagonizing their neighbors. Instead you seem intent on buying into the narrative that what Israel is doing is 100% necessary and not antagonistic. You're putting a lot of effort into not seeing the "blatant misinformation is that everyone sees so clearly" as you put it in your original comment to me. These attacks aren't necessary or justified, no matter how Israel decides to spin the narrative and have media outlets carry it as if it were the truth. If Hezbollah wanted to go to war they would have. What Israel is doing in Gaza is more than enough reason for anyone to declare war and move in. Don't believe me? Just ask the ICC.
Hezbollah is just as keen as Israel to keep their PR story straight wrt civilian victims.
If you don't 'for a second' believe the Israeli strike on Sunday was 'pre-emptive', what would you call it? Hezbollah planned a big rocket strike and Israeli jets tried bombing their launch sites half an hour before. As far as strikes go, it doesn't really get more textbook 'pre-emptive' than that.
If you believe Israel's reactions aren't necessary or justified, how would you suggest they react to Hezbollah firing rockets at them? Should they act like these rockets don't exist? Do you think that if Israel never struck back, Hezbollah would just get tired of it over time and stop?
Really? They're afraid of looking bad compared to Israel? They'd have to do a lot to get there. Given what Israel is doing in Lebanon, no one would blame them if Hezbollah returned in kind. But instead they clearly state when they have actually attacked Israel. And it's not civilian areas. You can choose to not believe that. But of the 2 groups one of them has a proven track record of attacking civilians and children and it's not Hezbollah.
Your entire argument is like if a bully says "I had to attack this person, they were about charge me" and then completely ignore the fact that the bully has been doing nothing but provoking and attacking that person for months. It's crying victim when you're in fact the perpetrator. If you want to just ignore all that and say these attacks are justified then that's your evil you choose to believe. You're either intentionally being ignorant or just a troll. Either way, I'm done responding to you. I have better things to do with my time than argue with someone who tries to defending a genocidal and warmongering nation as being justified in their actions.
Fair enough
I just think you're so angry about Israel, you don't really care about the truth anymore
You know what? I am angry. I am very angry.
I'm angry that a colonial state hellbent on eradicating the native population not only exists but is defended and funded by the most powerful nations on earth. I'm angry that this state has shepherded the entire native population into the worlds biggest open-air prison in history. I'm angry that they have that entire population dehumanized to the point where everyday civilians go out of their war to harass, starve, attack, and even kill these people. I'm angry that for decades the military has been killing these people on a regular basis that makes the violence in America against Black people look minor. I'm angry that for decades the whole native population has been displaced all to appease some kind of religious regime that is based on cruelty and pain. I'm angry that this government has an acceptable civilian to enemy combatant kill ratio of 1000:1. I'm angry that several school busses of children get slaughtered everyday and the people capable of putting a stop to this just shrug their shoulders. I'm angry that this same state routinely executes journalists and aid workers to cover up their atrocious actions. I'm angry that this state routinely attacks their neighbors simply because they can. I'm angry that the man in charge of this state is someone who is afraid of letting go of power to save himself from retribution and instead proceeds to double down on the modern days most brutal war as well as sabotage peace talks. I'm angry that we literally know all this is happening and let it. Say what you want about the Germans in WWII but at least the majority didn't know just how bad things were in those camps. We do.
But that's not all that makes me angry. You know what else makes me angry?
You. People like you who just sit there and go on a thread calling this state for their BS and go "Hurr durr of course they're going to retaliate! What did you expect?" People like you who are very clearly aware of what's happening but choose to be morally correct when it suits you. People like you who choose to go on these threads in an attempt to de-rail the whole conversations for either some misguided sense of self-righteousness or because they're paid to. People like you who want to sit there and claim that someone attacked this state based on what this state says even though this state has a proven track record of outright lying and manipulating the truth. So yeah, I'm more inclined to believe Hezbollah, who very rarely denies attacking Israel, if they do. I'm angry that I actually have several people like you replying to my comments regularly trying to deflect all of this and that I have to defend and justify my words. I'm angry that you didn't even take a moment to say something like "Yeah I don't condone what Israel is doing either but if Hezbollah did target children than I don't condone that as well". You could have just said that and we could have moved on. And I'm really angry that after all this you have the audacity to sit there and tell me that I don't care about the truth. I do care, I care too much. That's my problem. Yours is that you don't care enough. If you did you would have acknowledged what we were really talking about in this thread and provided your input and moved on.
Well let me start by saying that your take on the conflict is, again, very one sided. It's history and how we got to this point is a lot more nuanced. That is a different discussion than the initial one but of course related.
My take on that, in brief, comes down to both Arab nationalists/islamists and zionists/jews seeing around 1920 that it would eventually come to an armed conflict between the two religious sides, and both moving their mindset to remove the other from the territory. And it did come to an armed conflict, which one side won and the other lost.
But even then, there is a lot of nuance as there was and is a spectrum between extremists and people who want to live in peace. Over time, violence from both sides has shifted that spectrum. A lot of people seem to have forgotten that it was not always like this, but up until the first intifada, someone from Gaza could just go visit their friends in the Kibbutz next door.
And you can say that the blame for all this falls squarely on the zionists for slowly moving towards their goal, but I would counter that it also falls on the islamists: instead of a two-state solution, they chose to fight and lost. (Whether they were right to do this is yet another discussion.) But after they lost the military conflict(s), they then chose to never give up and continue to, as you say, antagonize Israel until the end of time. The friendly peaceful rocket attacks from Hezbollah are part of this. And the prospect of this neverending violence has greatly shifted and hardened the mindset on the moderate Israelis as well, which spiralled into the current situation.
That's because you (and a lot of other lemmings) expect these 'converstations' to be warm and simplistic, circlejerking how Israel is bad. Am I 'derailing' the conversation by stating the OP's collage is idiotic? Their take that a strike cannot be called pre-emptive because they don't like the side that did it is just very, very idiotic. And when I call people out for this idiocy, the argument shifts towards an even more idiotic one : "Hezbollah never planned an attack, that's an Israeli lie". When I point out that stupidity by refering to the chief of Hezbollah proudly proclaiming they executed an attack after they had planned it for a month, the conversation is derailed back towards the argument "why would you defend Israel?".
I don't defend Israel, I'm defending the truth about the events from Sunday. I worry that people like yourself think it's ok to lie about clear facts because they (probably) think it will make the world better.
Israel attacks Lebanon is the correct headline.
Anything else is propaganda.