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this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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No Stupid Questions
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It's still bad compared to modern lossless algorithms. PNG is very old and even though PNG encoders have evolved, it is still fundamentally a decade behind modern lossless compression algorithms.
For example: JPEG XL in lossless mode compresses at least 30% better than PNG.
Also, PNG is not actually lossless in many cases. PNG only supports RGB colorspaces. If you try to store anything that's not in an RGB colorspace (e.g. a frame of a video) in a PNG, you will lose some color information as colorspace conversion is not lossless. Example of someone running into this issue: https://stackoverflow.com/q/35399677
JPEG XL supports non-RGB colorspaces so you don't have this problem.
Okay but that difference is not as critical as with jpg, which are also more abundant. The bigger problem with png is that people use it for things it's not meant or designed for - frame of a video being case in point.
If anything, it just proves how lacking we are in other image formats, when we keep shoehorning clipart formats like png and gif into other duties. Well not lacking as in not having them, but not using them.
There's no real reason why you shouldn't use PNG for a frame of video. I'm not talking about using it as a video format, I'm talking about extracting a frame from a video and sending it off to an editor for inclusion in another video or image.
As a user, I would expect that I could use the most popular lossless image format if I want to losslessly share a frame from a movie with someone.
Of course I do agree that we need adoption of other image formats. We really should not still be cramming everything in PNGs or JPGs in 2023.
There is, exactly because png is made for strict rgb colorspace. Especially today when videos can be in HDR and with all kinds of color correction shenanigans, so which you won't get back once you try to put the PNG back into the video.
But I'm not a video editor, so I don't know what still format is best suited for this. I imagine real editors can deal with it, and for regular people who just make screenshots for memes, it's good enough. As I said, png is still a good enough format, but let's not use it for stuff like converting webp photos for further sharing.
I think we generally agree but I just want to clarify anyways. I'm not saying we should use PNG to store frames from videos.
What I am saying however, is that we should replace PNG with a modern lossless image format that is more flexible so users don't have to deal with these issues. All this colorspace stuff should be automatically handled and I shouldn't have to worry about it not being lossless. If I want to save a frame of video, I should be able to do it using an image format that everybody recognizes and accepts, it should not be a huge hassle and it should be fully lossless.
Yes. The problem is getting developers/companies to support anything beyond than just the basics. There's enough formats that could work, but if the big players only support these formats, everything else is secondary. Just like many music players still play only mp3.