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83 major Chinese brands implicated in report on forced labour of ethnic minorities from Xinjiang
(www.business-humanrights.org)
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this post was submitted on 27 Jul 2023
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Apparently not me. Can you elaborate?
Adrian Zenz is a right-wing christian fundamentalist, in his own words, "sent by god to destroy the CCP". For his mission, he is ready to make up lots of crazy stuff. After he gets proven to be factually wrong or that he does not in any way have any form of scientific evidence for any of his claims, he doubles down on them. His "research" does not follow any scientifically acceptable method. For example, the figure millions of detained Uyghurs came from a sample group of 8 (eight) interviews. So even if you ignore his religious views and his political motivation in his work, the lack of scientific methods makes it unacceptable to cite him in a paper.
Lots of people put lots of effort into debunking his claims. Use a search engine and dig in!
Or use the opposite approach, thats what I did! Around 2019 when Zenz came up with his claims of the Uyghur Genocide, I was so shocked and found them so crazy and unacceptable that I really wanted to learn everything about it and find the evidence, understand whats going on. I had an unfavorable view of China (to put it mildly honestly) and was super motivated. Well... never found any evidence of genocide, cultural genocide, or anything coming close to such things, but it almost turned me into a Tankie, so always remain critical 😊
I looked up Adrian zenz as soon as I received this comment. Zealots aren't very endearing to me, But since his studies regarding Uyghurs haven't been disproved, I kind of let the Christianity go.
There's definitely a cultural genocide happening in xinjiang though, their culture is being dismantled very rapidly.
Camp guards and former prisoners and free citizens of xinjiang all attest to the CCP concentration camps, that uyghurs aren't allowed to practice their religion or speak their mother tongue.
I don't understand how you didn't find any evidence. Do you mean you just don't believe any of the articles or interviews or documentaries about the Uyghur re-education camps?
This is one of the concentration camps that a BBC News team was allowed inside of:
https://youtu.be/WmId2ZP3h0c
Either you have a genuine interest in learning more and knowing what's going on - which will require a little effort and a bit of an open mind to expand the sources you might be used to - or you check a few sites and videos that kinda confirm what you want to believe and then fill out the rest with your assumptions and prejudices.
Ok, they haven't. You are interested in the matter and want to learn more about it, right? Then go read his studies, see what they consist of, and see why no one has been able to disprove the findings of Adrian Zenz.
That is terrible then, and you care about it, right? Then go and learn more about it. Learn about the history of Xinjiang and how the lives of the people in that region have changed over the last few decades. Research how Uyghur culture is being dismantled very rapidly.
Find actual proof for what you want to be true.
One last thing, I really never said that there were or are no re-education camps. They played a very vital role in the war against terror. You claiming that I said they never existed, annoyed me.
Anyway, all the best.
Recommendations to start:
You claim that there is no proof for a cultural genocide against the uyghurs.
Right here: "Well... never found any evidence of genocide, cultural genocide, or anything coming close to such things".
Above, I've linked proof provided by the CCP showing uyghurs not allowed to speak their language, practice their religion, and the Chinese officials in charge of that camp saying that they detained innocent uyghurs before they commit crime because they might commit a crime later.
Cultural genocide is the genocide of a culture, in case you find the term too oblique. By indefinitely detaining free and innocent people until they stop practicing their culture and begin practicing the culture approved by the CCP, the CCP is practicing cultural genocide, contrary to your claim.
Strangely(but I appreciate it) you subsequently backpedal and you even agree with me that "uyghur culture is being dismantled very rapidly."
Yes, thank you, I agree.
I never claimed you didn't believe in the existence of Uyghur concentration camps; I asked you how, with video and journalistic evidence of the concentration camps(where cultural genocide is occurring), do you still not believe in that evidence of cultural genocide.
*CPC (Communist Party of China is the official term)
Read my other reply first; this is part two. You claim that Zenz's studies on Uyghurs haven't been disproven, but this is incorrect, they are accepted because they fit a narrative. For one, Zenz has deliberately lied about China in the past, like claiming that the Chinese government was trying to suppress the fact that COVID-19 was transmissible between humans, despite China confirming this fact a day earlier. For refutations of his research, see [1] and [2]. It genuinely seems like you're just ignorant, but maybe I'm wrong. Hope to see a reply.
I understand the points you're trying to make, but they fall apart very quickly in light of regional, global and historical context.
I've read and watched all of your links, and I'm replying with regard to your requested order.
Why are the Chinese throwing specifically Uyghurs into concentration camps and destroying their culture when there are so many minorites to oppress? Three big reasons: 1) Uyghurs look radically different than han Chinese, they look middle eastern and european rather than other minority ethnicities in China. 2) 94 percent of the Chinese population lives on the east coast of China. Uyghurs, 3000 miles west and thousands of miles closer geographically to Europe and the Middle East, are uniquely positioned to open diplomatic ties with other countries, 3) historically culturally distinct from the rest of China(being Muslim and near Europe, Uyghur schools taught multiple languages from a young age). Because of this relative academic excellence at the time,(distinguishing the rest of china) xinjiang was the only province of China not completely physically dismantled by mao during his rampage against "old culture". Uyghur education was a good example for mao to point to. Now, the CCP is violently enforcing a homogeneous culture.
Being so far away from 94 percent of the Chinese population, historically disinterested in being part of China, being culturally distinct from China, and being in a position to easily open ties with Europe and the Middle East, with a 3-thousand mile head start on the CCP, makes Xinjiang a natural third major target for a dictatorial government trying to consolidate power. China has already attacked the first and second targets, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Although Taiwanese industry, infrastructure and diplomatic ties progress beyond the CCPs control; Taiwan has their own military, a distinct culture, western ties, and are even recognized as a separate country, so the CCP does what they can to suppress and discredit Taiwan without a full-on invasion. Hong Kong has Western ties and a distinct culture, and a large, concentrated population, but no military, so the CCP has passed incredibly broad and vague retroactive "anti-terrorism" laws that allow them to forcefully invade and occupy Hong Kong and extradite any Hong Kong citizen for any reason from Hong Kong to mainland China, to be detained indefinitely without any appeal in court. How about Xinjiang citizens? Culturally and physiologically distinct from other Chinese citizens, geographically far away from the CCP, and in a position to expand their influence even as they call for independence, but no separate military, a relatively small population, and no significant ties to powerful countries. So the CCP labels them terrorists, invades them, destroys cultural buildings that define the uyghurs as obviously a different culture, throw at least 10% of the population into re-education camps(make sure the politicians and professors are among that 10%), limit their transportation and track all the rest of them.
If you look at more than just the number of ethnicities in China, it makes perfect sense why the CCP is persecuting this specific minority: for the same reasons they're persecuting, Taiwanese and Hong Kong citizens, except the Uyghurs have less resistance capabilities.
Since you asked about the hui specifically, they are terrified of being attacked next, since there was no provocation or necessity for the concentration camps in xinjiang other than uyghur physiological and cultural difference. The hui, however, look more like Han Chinese and have not advocated independence from China, unlike the uyghurs.
As for the US interest in Xinjiang, yes, that ties directly into one of the reasons stated above the CCP is specifically attacking Uyghurs. Wilkerson explains how the CIA could destabilize the CCP through Xinjiang, but It's just as likely that the US would keep military on the western edge of a hostile, powerful country as the US military does with other powerful countries (3000 US soldiers recently sent to the western boundary of Russian influence with directions not to engage). Not engaging, but there. Wilkerson says that Xinjiang is an easy entry point to China, which yes it is, a lot easier than anywhere on the east coast.
The energy artery is no longer as significant as Edmonds makes it out to be, with regard to energy developments and energy investments in the last decade in the east of China. She's also agreeing that Xinjiang is an important region for the CCP with ties to other countries. That is why the CCP wants to control xinjiang completely and erase any trace of independence.
As for no cultural genocide going on, not being allowed to speak your language, forced to pledge allegiance to the CCP, not allowed to wear your own clothing, and the cultural buildings(at least 10,000 mosques so far) that have been destroyed speak louder than the lack of evidence you're providing.
It's fine if you don't like the BBC, but their video is of a re-education camp detaining Uyghurs, created by China to culturally repress Xinjiang citizens, and the Chinese officials in charge of that particular camp admit the Xinjiang citizens may be detained without cause indefinitely. Whatever you think of the BBC, that's what is being shown in that video sanctioned by the CCP of a camp sanctioned and exhibited by the CCP. Similar documentaries(often longer than the BBC News statement) are available by vice news and other news organizations.
Seems like whoever wrote that article you linked to just really hates that one BBC presenter and does nothing to discredit the actual content of the video.
As for zenz, your argument is that the cultural genocide against Uyghurs zenz claims hasn't been disproven because his studies have been accepted. Which doesn't address the fact that his studies have not been disproven.
I get that you don't like Zenz, he seems bombastic, and I don't care about him personally at all(data over tweets for me), but I don't think that has a bearing on what the CCP is doing to the uyghurs.
Side note - what are you talking about with zenz being a day late? China announced covid-19 human transmissibility in January 2019 afaik, and that tweet is from May. Is that 5 month gap what you mean by "the day after"?
PART 2
3: Evidence]
Talking about “lack of evidence” in a paragraph like this that should be loaded with links is strange. Please cite your source for the demolition of 10,000 mosques (reminding us of claims which swept Western media in 2019 only to be proven false, “wear your own clothing” (of which the only reference I can find was one of the signs of extremism being: “wearing, or compelling others to wear, burqas with face coverings” (XUAR de-extremification regulations), which is not traditional Uyghur clothing), and not being allowed to speak one’s one language (maybe a reference to the the teaching of Mandarin as a skill in VCs so that business can be done between regions and prefectures, although there is no law forbidding one from speaking Uyghur).
Why is there no mention whatsoever of the AP News article and the notes by The New Atlas I linked? Here’s another article with a lot of sources.
4: British Broadcasting Corp.]
The presenter is the one providing context. And sure you can watch the video on mute but I don’t think you’ll get the same picture (and you won’t get the lies about graffiti which really give the video its signature edge). The commentary is the video. You should note the Uyghur language script and instruction in the facility (with Mandarin being taught), of which you wouldn’t be aware otherwise, which calls into question your claim that Uyghurs are not allowed to speak their own language.
In your original comment linking the documentary, you said:
Now we’re aware that your claim that the video showed proof of not being allowed to speak one’s language was false (instead teaching Mandarin for employment opportunities with Uyghur still present). It wasn’t the “video proof”, but the commentary that convinced you of this. And where is the evidence that Uyghurs can’t practice their religion? And which concentration camps do you know of where “inmates” leave on weekends (we see this in the video)? The video shows no evidence of any of your claims. I can only assume that, contrary to your claims, you in fact didn’t read the article, as you didn’t backtrack on any of this, much less the words on prevention of crime by an official which you cited as undeniable proof of wrongdoing and cultural genocide despite the article addressing this and showing how it was misrepresented by the BBC commentator. The article I linked isn’t an additional source of information, it’s a demonstration of dishonesty by analysis that I could have repeated again in my comment, but I figured this wasn’t necessary since it had already been done. I guess if you don’t explain something twice it doesn’t get through.
Note: Why would China allow foreign press entrance into a facility in which they were supposedly performing genocide?
5: Adrian Zenz]
I think there is a misunderstanding here. I was addressing your assumption that his studies were not disproven (which was based on the fact of their acceptance by the mainstream in the West); his research had been disproven, as shown for instance in the two articles linked in my original comment. I would assume that this mistake is because you didn’t see my second reply (also indicated by the continued use of ‘CCP’ as opposed to ‘CPC’), but I only addressed Zenz in that comment, so this can’t be the case.
Your ‘side note’ is really just another mistake (also the correct date is Jan. 2020, not Jan. 2019; and I said “a day earlier”, not “the day after”). The tweet I linked is from a third party comparing Zenz’s tweet (Jan. 21, 2020) to a NYT headline (Jan. 20, 2020). The third party tweet is from May, but the “day earlier” comment refers to the actual content: Zenz’s tweet vs. the NYT article, of which the latter appeared a day before the former. So no, this is not the “five month gap” I meant by “a day earlier.”
Woo, you really just jump into the name-calling and mud-slinging when you get called out.
Why didn't I include more sources for you in the last reply? You used The Gray Zone(notoriously biased and factually incorrect extremist hub(https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-grayzone/) and an outdated screenshot of a tweet about another tweet that you pretended argues against but actually agrees with my stated position on covid-19 transmissibility disclosure as your sources. I honestly thought you didn't care about sources at all.
BTW, check out my linked sources, they are near center or officially "least biased", meaning they have minimal bias, use few loaded words, factual reporting and often sourced. The most credible media sources. As opposed to the Gray Zone aaaaand - screenshots of Twitter.
Let's see what you tried here.
You answered your own question about the countries that recognize Taiwan as its own country, did not include a link to your opinion poll that disagrees with, and since you mentioned America, I'll add that 64% of Americans recognize Taiwan's independence(https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/biden_administration/64_want_u_s_to_recognize_taiwan_s_independence) Many countries are scared of how sensitive China gets when Taiwanese people point out that Taiwan is its own country, but that isn't how the country is actually perceived(or how every opinion poll I've seen actually shakes out(https://jamestown.org/program/taiwan-opinion-polling-on-unification-with-china/). It is funny that you referenced a study from Chengchi that apparently points to the exact opposite of their findings in 2022 but didn't include a link(this is what links look like): https://www.newsweek.com/taiwan-china-politics-identity-independence-unification-public-opinion-polling-1724546
The title of that 2022 article about an opinion poll from Taiwan on Chinese reunification is "Taiwan's Desire for Unification with China Near Record Low as Tensions Rise."
China is invading Hong Kong. It is weird that you don't think you can invade yourself, I'm not sure what you are referring to. Are you entirely unaware of the concept of a civil war? Or abscesses in the human body invading other body parts? Besides Hong Kong being autonomous from China and not being invaded "by itself" anyway, of course something can invade or occupy itself, especially if the "itself" is actually separate from "itself", as HK or Taiwan is from China.
Looks like you're just agreeing with me about Xinjiang, except for the very simple percentage. There are 12+ million Uyghurs, there are around 1.5 million concentration camp detainees according to the UN(here, you can see that reference in NPRs article that is talking about "the largest incarceration of an ethnoreligious minority since the Holocaust": https://www.npr.org/2021/06/10/1005263835/new-report-details-firsthand-accounts-of-torture-from-uyghur-muslims-in-china, and 12 million/1.5 million is: 12.5 percent. The 'even more detainees than you thought" can be attributed to the indiscriminate minority additions to concentration camps of the - well, you just take a gander at the next paragraph.
You are so aghast at the idea of evidence concerning the hui afraid they're next for the camps - here you go. - Oh wait, the hui are already in the concentration camps alongside the Uyghurs - https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/10/internment-detention-xinjiang-hui-muslims-swept-into-camps-alongside-uighur/ https://www.neweurope.eu/article/xinjiangs-hui-minority-have-also-been-forced-into-camps-alongside-the-uyghurs/
I'm sure it's annoying that it's so easy for me to debunk your nonsense, but if you want me to focus specifically on a person or paragraph, you're going to have to make that specific request, I'm not going to sift through your cluttered extremist blogs looking for your references.
You claimed Wilkerson admitted to something he didn't and that Edmonds was concerned about Xinjiang being an energy artery, so I proved you wrong or simply behind the times on both counts.
It looks in this next section you're trying to pretend that I don't believe the CIA foments unrest in Xinjiang(or globally). As per us, you are incorrect. Not as obviously incorrect as Edmonds that "every single uprising and terror-related scheme in Xinjiang" was planned, financed and executed by the US(a ridiculous and absolutist claim that is impossible to verify), but still incorrect.
Tarry forth!
10,000 mosques destroyed is an outlandish claims, but knowing that the CCP is actively destroying mosques and working off you not using sources, I didn't have a problem with that since at least I was reporting on the factual demolition of cultural Uyghur sites by the CCP, like: 100 Uyghur burial grounds demolished(https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/02/asia/xinjiang-uyghur-graveyards-china-intl-hnk/index.html)
As for being forced to speak Mandarin(https://www.siasat.com/uyghur-prisoners-forced-to-speak-in-chinese-kowtow-to-police-2378372/), language bans(so many sources, how about RFA(https://www.rfa.org/english/news/uyghur/language-07282017143037.html) Let's see, my sources for the Uyghur genocide are all credited as least biased and credible, while your one cherry picked report is subtitled "It is not in the interests of British workers to accept the lies being propagated by our rulers." Why does this seem biased...oh, because most of the words are loaded and vague, I get it!
Uyghur re-education camps - even though the CCP is banning Uyghur language, you are convinced they are not forcing Uyghurs to speak Mandarin in cultural re-education camps on the basis of a wall-hanging in a specific concentration camp the CCP has put on display, scheduled a dance and cultural exhibition for and has prepared to be broadcast globally. You think that single publicly curated and displayed concentration camp is reflecting the conditions in all the camps the rapes and abortions are happening? Again, your point is something already disproven by the DOE in Xinjiang(read the RFA article above).
Looks like after this, you just reiterate that you don't like that video(there are others), and there are multiple articles in this comment that prove the existence of Uyghur-language bans by the government, so the rest of your 4th point crumbles. Let's move on!
Oh my gosh, still on Zenz? I get it. You don't like him. Whatever, the point of your paragraph here is that you agree with me that the human transmissibility of covid-19 was announced by China in January 2020. Cool. Don't know how you took two paragraphs to agree again, but thanks anyway.
Oh, a strong finish! Your outdated tweet that ultimately agrees with what I said about transmissibility....okay great.
Embarrassing for you, but fun for me! If you are actually trying to make convincing arguments, you/re going to have to use better sources than obscure, biased cherrypicked headlines and a link to a screenshot of screenshotted, undated tweets. Try what I did! Direct links and crushing, undeniable evidence from multiple, least-biased sources.
Feels good knocking down your propaganda. Peace!
PART 1 [Edit: PART 2 is not loading on my view, see my user page for the comment if you can't access it]
Not gonna feel good in a second, your reply is seriously bad.
Didn’t call you a name once lmao
Media bias fact check isn’t a source (no failed fact checks either). Let’s go over this link though, since it’s pretty fun. I like how it cited Radio Free Asia, the CIA-founded site that receives funding from U.S. Congress (ooh Media Bias fact check ranks it high, despite its repeated absurd propaganda surrounding the DPRK and China); the site doesn’t actually link the RFA report. Remember that I pointed out that the BBC was biased against China, then showed how that bias melted into the story you cited. You attempted to do only the first half, which is a solid case of the genetic fallacy, since the Grayzone isn’t doing word of mouth on the ground reporting but analysis which can be independently verified (thus requiring more than a proof of bias). It doesn’t matter if Grayzone is bad (they have published some anti-vaccine nonsense for example) if their specific articles here are correct (they are, and are extensively cited), but this is all done away with by Media Bias Fact check, how grim.
What a source registers on MBFC means literally nothing, as we’ve just caught them citing the CIA to prove “CCP affiliation” and then not linking that citation. Again and again you will appeal to authority with this source, and act like it proves a specific claim.
The vast majority of countries do not recognize Taiwan as a country (so that general comment was misleading, this is all I meant to comment). In regards to U.S. citizens' opinions of the independence of Taiwan, I’m sure you know this means less than nothing.
“This is what a link looks like” lmao. Every figure I noted was accurate (apparently this Newsweek report with a lot of “loaded words” tricked you again). Note that overall support for independence at any date is lower than support for continuing as a part of China with separate autonomy under One Country, Two Systems. This is exactly what I said, so you didn’t disprove anything.
The headline of a Newsweek article, which is just reposting the results of a non-affiliated poll, has no bearing on anything. Such a weak point, as if Newsweek has no agenda.
I’m aware of the concept of a civil war, of which Hong Kong and China have not been engaged, and which conceptually would require some claim of independence or separatism to allow an “invasion of oneself”, essentially the negation of the whole self and a reiteration of my point. In regards to the body, are you referring to infections which are introduced from without (cuts/openings introducing foreign bacteria) then spreading from one part of the body to another? How does this refute my point? Hong Kong is autonomous (largely governs itself, is capitalist whereas mainland China is socialist), but it is still a part of China, and the comparison to Taiwan (of which I can assume you’re referring to separation of land between bodies of water) is incorrect because it implies some conflict of territory rather than entrance by a universal power of China.
We’ll forget that NPR is funded by the U.S. government and instead look at the article itself. First, we have the Amnesty International report (we’ll ignore Amnesty International’s ties to the U.S. government; this report has been refuted in-depth. I wonder where this “the largest incarceration of an ethnoreligious minority since the Holocaust” quote is from… ah Adrian Zenz. Speaking to the VCMF, founded by the U.S. government. We’ll let this slide for a third time. In his initial report for the ~1m estimate [https://doi.org/10.1080/02634937.2018.1507997], RFA (U.S. government propaganda outlet) is cited four times, and the estimate is only mentioned on (pp. 21-2). Zenz finds this number by roughly extrapolating a “leaked” report by Newsweek Japan (affiliated with Newsweek Inc.). This report comes from “Istekral TV”, which frequently platforms the terrorist organization ETIM. The report was never confirmed. Judging by an RFA report (RFA 2017; p. 22), Zenz states, “while there is no certainty, it is reasonable to speculate that the total number of detainees is between several hundred thousand and just over one million.” This is all that is said regarding this topic.
Zenz says in the interview you quoted through NPR, “I also uncovered that there's tools to implement intrauterine contraceptive devices and other intrusive surgical birth prevention mechanisms in at least 80% of the targeted women.” But we know this is incorrect and misleading, as shown here 1] [2]. Now I know you’re gonna get confused and say “that’s not a reliable source” but remember it’s analysis and thus can come from anywhere. You’ll have to get out of your appeals to authority and actually refute it.
The most important part of this article is of course that the “The United Nations has said that up to 1.5 million Uyghurs are in internment camps in China.” Now this article was released before the UN’s official report in 2022, so what is it talking about? The article doesn’t have a link for this claim, so I can only think of the 2018 UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination report authored by the NGO (Network of) Chinese Human Rights Defenders [which has received NED (U.S. government) funding. The report (which concludes 1.3-2 million detainees) was based on interviews with only 8 Uyghur individuals, then extrapolated to form percent estimates on the population of detainees in the XUAR. This is what is obscured by your “low bias” “no loaded words” sources.
Now your New Europe link is an article with exactly zero sources and no specific references to evidence, so we will dismiss this. The Foreign Policy article has a hard paywall (down to source), so it can’t be bypassed (leading me to believe you didn’t read this article at all, but instead just looked at the headline and then cited it).
I’m sorry my articles aren’t approved by Media Bias Fact Check (lol, lmao even), but you’re being incredibly lazy. This is a fun thing to repeat back: “I’m sure it’s annoying that it’s so easy for me to debunk your nonsense”
Now don’t flatter yourself, you did not prove I lied about Wilkerson admitting something. I said, “[he] admitted that a strategic reason for continued U.S. presence in Afghanistan is for the use of the Uyghur population in that nation as a bulwark against China.” Wilson specifically said that they were there partly for the opportunity to use Uygurs against China (although the U.S. wouldn’t admit if they were already doing this, and his “you didn’t hear that from me” comments are obviously suspect, but not needed to prove my claim).
Edmonds was concerned, and you never “proved” this was “behind the times.”
Then your point about Xinjiang being uniquely vulnerable and an important region for China in fact proves my point.
I tip le hat to you le redditor of sorts (k-ll me)
PART 2
I did use sources… you’re just trying to justify being caught in a lie. Well we know how satellite images worked last time for proving the demolition of cultural sites (I used a source for this last time but you’ll have to grapple with your new lie to see it).
Next you cite two sources for being forced to speak Mandarin; the first is an article which just cites RFA reports relying on their independent verification of testimony (impossible since RFA is a CIA-founded and U.S. government funded source); the next is just an RFA report on documents they “retrieved.” Color me unimpressed, certainly considering that you admitted these same bodies foment unrest in Xinjiang.
It could not matter less what Media Bias Fact Check calls “least biased and credible.” I want you to let this sink in. The pinnacle of “non-bias” requires no “anti-corporation bias” as cited for Grayzone being biased (I wonder why). And the subtitle is explained further in the article, I can’t help if you can’t get past the beginning.
Okay you still haven’t addressed the AP news article or anything else (and then lied saying that my only sources were Grayzone and Twitter). I used Twitter for analysis, not as a citation of itself, but it’s almost like you’re aiming to convince some phantom third party of your claims with this level of dishonesty.
Just using your source (sorry). Anyways we know the CPC hasn’t banned the Uyghur language (this is what the wall-hanging was about), the AP News article where they visit Xinjiang also showed Uyghur language books for sale. Mandarin is one of the skills practiced for employment, but you aren’t forbidden from speaking Uyghur.
By multiple you mean two; great response to my points on the BBC video by the way /s.
Last part, this is where you genuinely go crazy, like so nonsensical that I’m worried for you
Firstly you said January 2019, but we’ll let that slide again. The covid transmissibility was a point I brought up to show that Zenz has been dishonest and that his prejudices seep into his analysis of China as well (would be great if you read the Grayzone articles, but I’m okay with whatever dishonest sophism you need to justify not doing this). You corrected this point by saying that my “day earlier” note was incorrect because there was a “five month gap.” I explained how this was incorrect, and now you’re acting like there was just an argument on when China confirmed transmissibility? Just admit that your “is that 5 month gap what you mean by “the day after”?” point was nonsense; it’s that simple. There is nothing else to discuss, and you’re speaking gibberish.
Good job practicing self-love, but you made a pathetic reply that refuted nothing I said. I never cited headlines, you just couldn’t read past them; everything I cited was analysis, thus making obscurity irrelevant, but that’s definitely a fun emotional argument for you; the link to a tweet with screenshots, not a “screenshot of screenshot[s” (although this sounds better), and furthermore only one tweet was screenshotted, the other was an article of which we could verify the dates. Even if you’re right and the author fabricated his tweet for some reason, your “five months” dunk is still complete nonsense (try admitting this).
Love that you don't deny that you're peddling propaganda, just that I'm not going to feel good for stopping your propaganda in its tracks. I mean, I guess mediabiasfactcheck and the UN and every credible news organization(including your own special AP article) proved it pretty undeniably for me, but still funny that's how you start out.
Let's see what you tried for - seems like you replied much faster this time, forgoing the assistance of sources nearly altogether and just calling me a liar(super convincing). You don't like unbiased, fact-checked sources(cool, cool). Agreed-upon rational, dispersed assessment of collected data about human rights violations by the CCP against Uyghurs according to the United Nations, multiple trusted news organizations, the victims, detainees, guards is just "propaganda" to you, noted.
Then you rail against credible sources some more, say that even though you specifically mentioned my response lacking the US stance on Taiwan, you don't care about the US stance on Taiwan...haha, I do like the almost hysterical laughter and desperate tone you have in all of these paragraphs.
Agreeing with me about Chengchi and your own source disagreeing with you about reunification, cheers, change the goalpost from reunification to autonomy, ignoring that polled Taiwanese think the CCP is "bad," saying that there's no way to invade yourself by narrowly defining oneself, hey a link!
A link! First non-opinion/epithet piece! Let's see what you have here. A debunking of a credible article you don't like because "conspiracy"(boy it's really everywhere except the Gray Zone(but wait, that website is know for disproven conspiracy theory. Hm.)).
Oh no, Zenz, that irritating loudmouth you can't disprove! Sorry about using him again, I see now that you need all the composure you can muster to make a coherent point. Ah, it's not just Zenz who uses the 1+ million number, it's pretty much every credible news organization(and as you point out, Amnesty International and the United Nations). You're just angry that Zenz is proving you wrong. Unerstandable.
Then you claim that data is reliable regardless of where it comes from, which is absurd and untrue.
You assume the UN has a single source for all of their data(you know "United" implies more than one, right?), which is amazing.
Apology accepted. You laugh hysterically again at how your articles are biased and least-credible, implying credibility isn't important for sources, so let it go, bro.
You said "Wilkerson admitted" although he said the US "could" take action hypothetically through Xinjiang and made it clear that he was not saying that was happening. So he didn't admit anything, he's providing plausible context to a situation.
Edmonds can be concerned all she wants, it doesn't change the fact that the "energy artery" through Xinjiang is becoming quickly irrelevant as the CCP continues to invest in operational, sustiainable energy in the East.
Yes, we agree that Xinjiang is vulnerable and important for China. Literally why the Uyghurs are in concentration camps. Boy, you run circles around yourself.
In part 2, you continue calling me a liar because you don't trust satellites and are ignoring the 100 Uyghur burial sites that were demolished, I guess?
Then you ignore the two sources I provide because why not, oh right- Your AP article!
Okay, specific article you've noted twice from a credible source. Let's see, the AP reports on the terror of Xinjiang citizens based on the actions of the CCP, the censorship of Xinjiang in the press, being escorted through a specifically displayed part of Xinjiang that seems uncanny, they agree that there are ongoing permanent mass detentions of Uyghurs - I don't get it, what do you want me to get from this article? Are you obliquely admitting to making a mistake and showing that you do, in fact have a credible source for the detention and cultural genocide of Uyghurs? Because big ol' pats on the back for you.
Ah, pretending I said you only used two sources when I didn't with a throwaway line, bitter, but classic. Claiming that "it doesn't matter if Grayzone is bad" even though, yea it does, if you're using an article of theirs as evidence for anything.
Another apology! Maybe you are obliquely trying to apologize without admitting anything. Also accepted.
Haha, okay, Uyghur isn't forbidden but none of the Uyguhrs in the curated parts of Xinjiang they were led through by CCP representatives spoke Uyghur? What a coincidence, that all the fluent Mandarin-speakers(a second tongue to Uyghurs) in Xinjiang were all in the exact same city and neighborhood the AP team was led to.
Multiple means "more than one", but maybe I should have used the less confusing "many" for you. I only provided two credible sources per fact/debunk because there are so many sources. When you have two verified sources, that is enough for mast people who are afraid of those sources to use a search engine themselves.
Yes, you are clearly letting a typo slide by bringing it up "multiple" times(see what I did there?). Okay, you agree that you linked an outdated screenshot of screenshotted tweets, but it doesn't matter and you don't care and you think I shouldn't care either! I do not. Done.
You cited analysis from poor sources, you cherrypicked irrelevant data points like the "energy artery," the existence of a book in a city proving t hat Uyghurs aren't being forced to speak Mandarin even though they all spoke Mandarin, denied the crediblity of every news organization except the AP(who apparently agrees that the cultural genocide is occurring) and Twitter(who...is twitter, why do you keep citing twitter?), these singular points of unverified claims contrary to all credible sources are not actual arguments for your hopeful "points", I hope you realize.
Don't know why you're hung up on the end of May being five months separate from the beginning of January, but it's definitely not your silliest misunderstanding, so have fun.
PART I
I just figured that was a word you just learned; “your propaganda” was just how you referred to my comment.
I don’t get notifications for this site, I just check it whenever; there is not a single claim I made that needed a source for which it wasn’t provided. And calling you a liar? You admitted to lying about mosque demolition, let’s forget how insecure you have to be in your position to completely lie (and then still act snarky when caught). I don’t think anything can convince you, but it looks like I’ve convinced other people judging by the comment likes. And unbiased sources like checks notes CNN and RFA? Yeah sorry your fact-checking website is utter garbage, and let’s not forget that I refuted each of your sources. Ooh an appeal to authority, I think that might be all you have left. You seem to be under the impression that “trusted news organizations” are beyond critique.
Man this “credible source” thing is all you have (MBFC is not infallible); I guess you didn’t want to address that you admitted the CIA was sowing unrest in Xinjiang and then cited the CIA (though RFA) for proof of your claims. I wouldn’t either. And your Taiwan point is absurd. I meant the official stance of the U.S. on Taiwan, not the stance of U.S. citizens from a single opinion poll of which I’m sure you’re aware is irrelevant—American citizens, famous for having worthwhile and informed geopolitical opinions.
Let’s see what I said when I originally cited the Chengchi study: “Taiwan’s National Chengchi University, an explicitly anti-CPC source, in 2022, showed the following results with regards to the perspective of Taiwanese citizens on independence and reunification: (Status Quo as Autonomous Part of China and Complete Unification Compiled [part of PRC] : 63.4%) (General Support for Independence Including Status Quo Moving Towards Independence [not part of PRC]: 30.3%) (Non-Response: 6.3%).” Remember that none of this was proven incorrect by you.
The argument was recognition as a separate country (complete reunification is not the only path to being part of China, with Status Quo encompassing this) which I’m sure you know and ignored for this pathetic dunk. Taiwanese people not liking the CPC does not refute my point, and just asserting that I narrowly defined oneself is not an argument.
JFC this “credible” thing is getting old. Apparently anything refuting a source which MBFC lists as “credible” is impossible? Your whole argument just appeals to authority and the genetic fallacy. And are you referring to the study refuting Amnesty International’s report? It doesn’t just call it a conspiracy and move on, I dare you to actually engage with the material. I know you won’t because you’re incapable. The Grayzone articles I linked on Zenz’s research were merely analytical. Refute them if you like, otherwise it doesn’t matter what the Grayzone is “known for”, because the genetic fallacy only works when you have to engage in trust, of which the Grayzone articles did not require.
If you ignore the Grayzone’s analysis because of the genetic fallacy and ignore my analysis of his 1+ million number I suppose I haven’t refuted him. I don’t care how “credible” these organizations are that use the number because I’m not interested in appeals to authority, prove your claim. The article you linked cited Zenz (and you quoted Zenz) on this “mass internment”, so I addressed it. You can’t then circularly appeal back to the article quoting him as proof of separate corroboration. I cannot believe your only argument now is this “credible” thing as if we can’t see and test the methodology of these sources. I already linked a refutation of Amnesty International’s report which you dismissed with no rebuttal. The NPR article you cited then cited AI, Zenz, and the UN; I know I’m gonna be saying “appeal to authority” a lot but it’s the only argument you’re making. I refuted all of these sources.
Outright lie, I said analysis can be sound regardless of where it comes from (and that you need to judge the analysis not the source), but your misrepresentation probably sounded better in your head.
This might be the dumbest point I’ve seen in a while. I’m not saying that; the NPR article cited a UN claim based on a report outsourced to CHRD, which I critiqued. Saying “they have united in their name therefore they have multiple sources” is obviously childish nonsense, with the UN claim at this point (NPR article published) being directly linked to the CHRD report they commissioned. The UN has done many things since, but this isn’t what you cited, and I’m not required to refute the whole of the UN.
Complete nonsense
Trying again? It's fun for me, at least.
Double down that your comments are propaganda, love it.
Pretend I admitted to a lie even though the 10,000 mosques comment hasn't been debunked, you just don't like it.
Then, you say you hate fact-checking, which cheeeecks out.
And you pretend that you refuted all of my sources when all you've done is agree with me that 10,000 is an outlandish claim that I've already agreed with. Not disproven, of course, just uncertain as to the extent of the number of mosques destroyed by virtue of the quality of satellite images provided.
Ignoring the destroyed burial grounds again, natch.
Change what you asked to a new question - no, the US government does not officially recognize Taiwan as a country, the government only treats Taiwan and behaves toward Taiwan as if it were a country. You hate opinion polls, even when you ask for them, sure.
Chengchi data disagrees with your claim about Chengchi data, don't know why you're proud of this(do you have a source for your special Chengchi data yet?).
You reiterate that you hate credible sources(we know). Call names, invite me to pick through your mud(nah, I'm good) that goes against all corroborating evidence, and then zap back to the Gray Zone, complain about me not paying more attention three replies ago to sources that you, yourself say are "bad".
Then, you wiffle waffle to finally agree that Zenz hasn't been disproven, which is appreciated, but must burn. Proud of you, though.
I thought your refutation of the Amnesty International was just your paper about satellites maybe not verifying the extent of reported. destruction That? As soon as we found out your do pretend to like credible sources, I admitted to finding the 10,000 round number outlandish, though not disproven. Are you referring to something else or are you just taken by all the zeroes?
Sorry you had to admit you were wrong about Zenz, but he talks a lot, so I'm sure you'll find something of his to actually refute(you know this means you actually have to prove something wrong, right? You might be thinking of the word "argue" when you keep using the word "refute" without proof) sooner or later.
You keep pretending I say things I don't. I guess since you can't directly refute my claims, you just pretend I made different claims and argue against them? But you don't even win those arguments, like that AP article that blew up in your face.
But this is funny, so keep it up.
You say that the United Nations(more than one country, and even one country has multiple sources, which may shock you) using multiple data routes is "childish nonsense"? That is wild.
You, ironically, admit that Wilkerson admitted to nothing and was proposing a hypothetical scenario.
Appreciate it.
Even though the satellite images haven't been disproven, you insist that I'm a liar. Cool.
You maintain that credible sources are not credible because you say so.
That AP article you shared is very clearly using subtext to reflect the double-talk the CCP is using to discount "genocide" even though they won't let Uyghurs practice their culture. Did you actually miss the point of that article or did you not read past the headline(no wait, even the headline evidences the oppression of Uyghurs)? The AP outright states that permanent mass detention is being carried out and repression against the Uyghurs and their culture is ongoing in China and the Chinese officials are lying about it. To their face.
Haha, your argument against the AP article that you are using as evidence(that whoops, supports the accusations of cultural genocide) is that they don't agree with your fanciful thinking, but they do agree with every credible, evidenced and documented news source? The fiends.
If the Gray Zone happens to occasionally use a non-erroneous statistical data set among their other manipulated or outright false data, bully for them. Sifting through a provably poor-quality news source for less-false information that will still be editorially manipulated doesn't make any sense when there are plenty of legitimate, corroborated news sources to use as references. No point digging through mud if you don't have to.
You truly believe that Uyghurs in Xinjiang speaking Mandarin as their first language is normal even though it never happened before the concentration camps and all of those now-Mandarin speakers are coincidentally in front of a news group invited to one neighborhood of "reformed extremists" surrounded by CCP officials? No wonder you have trouble distinguishing credible sources.
Yes, your screenshot of screenshots of undated Tweets, might as well cling to that as evidence. It's as strong as anything else you've got.
The fact that you think a piece of paper in a purposefully designed show concentration camp disproves the reports from China of spoken language repression is an impressively wide leap, and then your assumption that a specifically curated concentration camp meant to be displayed is indicative of the abuses going on in the other, non-public concentration camps is ludicrous. But cling, right? Cling to that scrap of parchment.
Then you malign credibility itself as a way to attack unassailable evidence because your indefensible sources haven't stood up to scrutiny. Rad.
And then you finally agree that your tweet is outdated, but, why? It is so difficult for me to care about tweets. Confirming your mistake about a tweet is like gilding irrelevance.
Well, this was fun, but since you haven't refuted the points I've made(and you've supplied in support of the Uyghurs, thanks AP) about the mass detainment and cultural genocide the CCP is perpetrating against the Uyghurs, and the points you've tried to make in previous comments have all fallen apart(two replies ago, why rehash them?), do you want to try a new piece of "evidence" or maybe a new topic? Since you've included none here and just keep crying foul because you've been proved wrong?
Maybe try to focus on just one article, maybe the big picture supported by multiple(more than one, remember) credible sources that create a provable cohesive thesis just isn't your forte. Just try not to pick a stance or issue that I'm already advocating, because(like AP and your satellite pictures and Zenz is not a liar but is irritating(preach)), then you aren't arguing against anything, you're just supporting my positions.
Really outdid yourself here. And not a source in sight! Probably wise, but still.
PART II
He said that another reason they were in Xinjiang is because they “could” use Uyghurs in the future (aka exactly what I claimed, see last post).
I already said it was a polysemous point. Keep up.
Now are we really going to do this? I called you a liar because you claimed 10,000+ mosques were demolished and then admitted you made it up when asked for a source (that’s called a lie, when you say something you know isn’t true). Who are you trying to fool with these omissions? You’re talking to me, so you won’t get away with misrepresenting my points. It’s that simple. And what a weak way of summarizing that I proved satellite images were abused in the past by the Western press for this exact purpose.
I didn’t ignore them, I explained why they weren’t viable. Again, who do you think these obvious lies will work on?
The AP News article is a proof of Western lies surrounding the detention of Uyghurs although they don’t admit it. See the New Atlas commentary I linked when I first added this source (remember analysis does not require MBFC “credibility”, just soundness; you could have done this analysis yourself, but I knew you weren’t capable). Now short-term memory gets the best of you.
I was using it for analysis (no need for blind trust). Your arguments are the exact reason the genetic fallacy was created. I already said that Grayzone can publish bad info (with reporting, notice the difference between his and analysis), but throwing all of their articles out of hand as a rule for this reason and then acting like I don’t have any sources is absurd. And you did claim that, so congrats.
This reception to sarcasm is incredibly childish.
This isn’t an argument at all. And thanks for admitting Uyghur isn’t forbidden (.~.). Yeah no, Uyghur language books for sale settles it, see the New Atlas analysis for the rest.
It’s pedantic but it’s strange you’re still saying “screenshot of screenshotted tweets”, when I linked a tweet which screenshotted another tweet (no double screenshot or multiple screenshots of tweets; you’re just saying this to convince yourself).
The source has no bearing on analysis, I don’t get how you can’t understand this yet. Let’s roll this back. You first cited the BBC video for proof the Uyghur language was banned and I showed that there was Uyghur language script above a door. You say the CPC could have put that there specifically for the visit, fine, then I show that Uyghur language books are being sold. Your response is to move the goalposts from the language being banned.
I refuted the “credible sources”, reasserting their “credibility” shows you can’t do thorough analysis. The AP note is stupid because I linked analysis along with it (NA); the AP article is proof of my point but only if you understand the context. I linked Twitter threads where people analyzed things, I didn’t cite twitter. This “credibility” thing is all you have, as if these sources are impenetrable or cannot be incorrect, as I proved they were.
??? Genuinely this is your dumbest point. Yes, May is five months from the beginning of January. Never claimed it wasn’t, and this has no bearing on anything I said (and is a misunderstanding of my “day earlier” comment).
Trying again? It's fun for me, at least.
Double down that your comments are propaganda, love it.
Pretend I admitted to a lie even though the 10,000 mosques comment hasn't been debunked, you just don't like it.
Then, you say you hate fact-checking, which cheeeecks out.
And you pretend that you refuted all of my sources when all you've done is agree with me that 10,000 is an outlandish claim that I've already agreed with. Not disproven, of course, just uncertain as to the extent of the number of mosques destroyed by virtue of the quality of satellite images provided.
Ignoring the destroyed burial grounds again, natch.
Change what you asked to a new question - no, the US government does not officially recognize Taiwan as a country, the government only treats Taiwan and behaves toward Taiwan as if it were a country. You hate opinion polls, even when you ask for them, sure.
Chengchi data disagrees with your claim about Chengchi data, don't know why you're proud of this(do you have a source for your special Chengchi data yet?).
You reiterate that you hate credible sources(we know). Call names, invite me to pick through your mud(nah, I'm good) that goes against all corroborating evidence, and then zap back to the Gray Zone, complain about me not paying more attention three replies ago to sources that you, yourself say are "bad".
Then, you wiffle waffle to finally agree that Zenz hasn't been disproven, which is appreciated, but must burn. Proud of you, though.
I thought your refutation of the Amnesty International was just your paper about satellites maybe not verifying the extent of reported. destruction That? As soon as we found out your do pretend to like credible sources, I admitted to finding the 10,000 round number outlandish, though not disproven. Are you referring to something else or are you just taken by all the zeroes?
Sorry you had to admit you were wrong about Zenz, but he talks a lot, so I'm sure you'll find something of his to actually refute(you know this means you actually have to prove something wrong, right? You might be thinking of the word "argue" when you keep using the word "refute" without proof) sooner or later.
You keep pretending I say things I don't. I guess since you can't directly refute my claims, you just pretend I made different claims and argue against them? But you don't even win those arguments, like that AP article that blew up in your face.
But this is funny, so keep it up.
You say that the United Nations(more than one country, and even one country has multiple sources, which may shock you) using multiple data routes is "childish nonsense"? That is wild.
You, ironically, admit that Wilkerson admitted to nothing and was proposing a hypothetical scenario.
Appreciate it.
Even though the satellite images haven't been disproven, you insist that I'm a liar. Cool.
You maintain that credible sources are not credible because you say so.
That AP article you shared is very clearly using subtext to reflect the double-talk the CCP is using to discount "genocide" even though they won't let Uyghurs practice their culture. Did you actually miss the point of that article or did you not read past the headline(no wait, even the headline evidences the oppression of Uyghurs)? The AP outright states that permanent mass detention is being carried out and repression against the Uyghurs and their culture is ongoing in China and the Chinese officials are lying about it. To their face.
Haha, your argument against the AP article that you are using as evidence(that whoops, supports the accusations of cultural genocide) is that they don't agree with your fanciful thinking, but they do agree with every credible, evidenced and documented news source? The fiends.
If the Gray Zone happens to occasionally use a non-erroneous statistical data set among their other manipulated or outright false data, bully for them. Sifting through a provably poor-quality news source for less-false information that will still be editorially manipulated doesn't make any sense when there are plenty of legitimate, corroborated news sources to use as references. No point digging through mud if you don't have to.
You truly believe that Uyghurs in Xinjiang speaking Mandarin as their first language is normal even though it never happened before the concentration camps and all of those now-Mandarin speakers are coincidentally in front of a news group invited to one neighborhood of "reformed extremists" surrounded by CCP officials? No wonder you have trouble distinguishing credible sources.
Yes, your screenshot of screenshots of undated Tweets, might as well cling to that as evidence. It's as strong as anything else you've got.
The fact that you think a piece of paper in a purposefully designed show concentration camp disproves the reports from China of spoken language repression is an impressively wide leap, and then your assumption that a specifically curated concentration camp meant to be displayed is indicative of the abuses going on in the other, non-public concentration camps is ludicrous. But cling, right? Cling to that scrap of parchment.
Then you malign credibility itself as a way to attack unassailable evidence because your indefensible sources haven't stood up to scrutiny. Rad.
And then you finally agree that your tweet is outdated, but, why? It is so difficult for me to care about tweets. Confirming your mistake about a tweet is like gilding irrelevance.
Well, this was fun, but since you haven't refuted the points I've made(and you've supplied in support of the Uyghurs, thanks AP) about the mass detainment and cultural genocide the CCP is perpetrating against the Uyghurs, and the points you've tried to make in previous comments have all fallen apart(two replies ago, why rehash them?), do you want to try a new piece of "evidence" or maybe a new topic? Since you've included none here and just keep crying foul because you've been proved wrong?
Maybe try to focus on just one article, maybe the big picture supported by multiple(more than one, remember) credible sources that create a provable cohesive thesis just isn't your forte. Just try not to pick a stance or issue that I'm already advocating, because(like AP and your satellite pictures and Zenz is not a liar but is irritating(preach)), then you aren't arguing against anything, you're just supporting my positions.
Really outdid yourself here. And not a source in sight! Probably wise, but still.
You're not knocking down propaganda, you're just being selectively gullible and letting absurd weirdos control your beliefs without investigating them. Adrian Zenz, breathless and inconsistent BBC videos, "medua bias fact check" that's a ridiculous politically one-dimensional "centrism is facts" website with no consistent methodology by people you should have no reason to trust.
Personally, I try to not unquestioningly accept state department propaganda directed at a perceived enemy state from 3 years ago, and then when challenged hastily google until my biases are confirmed, but you do you.
When there is not an actual genocide happening, but you want to smear a country as genocidal, smear people calling out your bullshit as genocide deniers, and when you don't care about watering down the seriousness of claiming a genocide is underway.