this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
82 points (98.8% liked)

Smartphone Required (digital exclusion of people without smartphones)

208 readers
1 users here now

This community collects stories, cases and situations where people without smartphones are excluded from society.

Rules/culture:
① If the post is not a specific instance of smartphones being imposed on people but generally about this topic, please consider prefixing the title with something like “(philosophy)” or “(advocacy)”, or the like.
② If the post is about this forum itself (e.g. about moderation or something), please consider prefixing the title with “(metapost)”.
③ Please consider prefixing titles with a region if the post is region-specific.

Somewhat related:

founded 6 months ago
MODERATORS
evenwicht
82
(Europe) Bank shut down its website and forced everyone to use its app (fedia.io)
submitted 6 months ago by ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io to c/smartphone_required
36 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

The closed-source app is exclusively available in these places:

  • Google Playstore
  • Apple store
  • Huawei store

The app will only run on quite recent phones. So anyone who does not keep their OS up to date (which implies periodically buying new hardware for the shitshow platforms people much choose between) are locked out of their account. Also:

  • No walk-in service
  • Over the counter service requires appointment and a fee for many staff-assisted operations
  • No paper statements. No phone → no statements.

The app requires SMS 2fa, so non-phone or landphone users: don’t even think about trying to use an android emulator.

If you want to close your account to escape this shitshow, you have 2 options:

  • In the app use the account closure feature, OR
  • Send a shit load of sensitive information (ID/passport, utility bill, bank account numbers to close, account numbers of your new external account to transfer the money to, etc) via Google (gmail) from an IP address that Google accepts.

(edit) Worth mentioning an aspect of these cashless banks that should be embarrassing for them: when you close an account, they have no cash so they cannot pay you your balance. You can pull money from an ATM but obviously only in denominations of paper banknotes. So how do you get the rest out? They expect you to open an account elsewhere and transfer it. How silly is that? Maybe you don’t want another account, or maybe you’re moving to a completely different part of the world and the transfer cost will exceed what remains.

You can hack around this various ways, like dining out and paying an exact amount by card and the rest by cash. But really, banks should be embarrassed they cannot give you cash. They shouldn’t need a vault just to secure €20 or so in change.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] lud@lemm.ee 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Worth mentioning an aspect of these cashless banks that should be embarrassing for them: when you close an account, they have no cash so they cannot pay you your balance. You can pull money from an ATM but obviously only in denominations of paper banknotes. So how do you get the rest out? They expect you to open an account elsewhere and transfer it. How silly is that? Maybe you don’t want another account, or maybe you’re moving to a completely different part of the world and the transfer cost will exceed what remains.

How else are you supposed to transfer money if not digitally or in cash (btw that frankly seems Insane)?

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The answer is in what you quoted: cash.

There should always be an option to cash out when closing an account. The ATM can get all but the last ~~€20~~ €19.99. It’s foolish and embarrassing that the bank cannot handle the remainder.. that they are so anti-cash that they refuse to have some petty cash around for micro transactions.

Or the bank could accept a small cash deposit. If the balance is €18.45, a customer should be able to deposit €1.55 so that they can pull €20 from the ATM. But cashless banks refuse to accept even the tiniest of deposits.

It should be illegal. It’s a kind of “binding”, where a business requires you to use another business. People should have a right to exit the banking system, full stop. Forcing someone to open another account as a condition to exiting (in effect) is absurd and denies people autonomy.

Apart from that, if a cashless bank insists on being 100% balls-to-the-wall anti-cash in their war on cash, they /could/ give customers who close their account a prepaid credit card funded with their account balance. Customer still has the problem of spending an exact amount but at least they could deal with it later, without fees eating away at their balance. They could do the split restaurant bill at a time of their choosing.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Why couldn't you get the last 20€ from an ATM?

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 5 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It’s not about the last €20¹. It’s about the last €18.45. How do you get €18.45 from an ATM?

Well, shit, that could be an answer too.. cashless banks could have a special kind of ATM that has no denomination limitations. Even my local grocer has a cash machine capable of dispensing all small denominations.

So there are several reasonable things they /could/ be doing, but there is no pressure on them to be competent.

¹ I will edit my post to make this more clear.

(edit) it just occurred to me this is a human rights violation. A very minor one, but against international law nonetheless. You cannot deprive someone of their property. UDHR Art.17:

  1. Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
  2. No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.
[–] lud@lemm.ee 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Even my local grocer has a cash machine capable of dispensing all small denominations.

What's the problem then?

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That’s not an ATM machine.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Aren't ATMs cash machines?

I honestly don't really know. I have pretty much never used an ATM Because I live in Sweden.

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

ATMs are a particular kind of cash machine, but cash machines are not necessarily ATM machines. The machine I describe at the grocery store enables customers to pay for their groceries without the cashier having to touch the bank notes. The customer can feed a €50 banknote in the machine, and get back change. The grocery machine handles any denomination. But it’s not an ATM (short for Automatic [bank] Teller Machine).

[–] lud@lemm.ee 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Alright. It's very odd that you can't get 10€ from an ATM though 100 SEK is the lowest for us which is around 10€

Can't you exchange the money in a normal store? That at least used to be possible here.

But in the end I don't think it's a big deal even if it's impossible. It's only 20€ and it's easy to spend it if you want too.

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Oh, actually I’m not sure why I had €20 in mind. Indeed some ATMs can dispense €10. But I don’t think I’ve seen one dispense €5. Some people will miss €9.99 more than others. But regardless, it’s embarrassing that banks don’t have the competency to enable customers to cash out. They have to do a bit of a dance and a hack to get all their money out of the bank.

Can't you exchange the money in a normal store? That at least used to be possible here.

Not sure what you mean.

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

Not sure what you mean.

I mean going to a normal store and asking to withdraw money.

Some will change a fine for that and some won't.

But yeah I agree that banks should have at least a few physical locations with cash. But I doubt most banks in Sweden have that.

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Ah, we call that “cashback” when you use a grocery or convenient store cash register like an ATM. I did not get the impression you could ask for any arbitrary amount, but if so then that would solve that problem (case 1).

[–] lud@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I don't know much about it but I assume that stores are more likely to help you if you ask for a very small amount like 10€ since that wouldn't destroy their cash reserves for the rest of the day.

[–] ciferecaNinjo@fedia.io 1 points 6 months ago

My question was more about denominations. I do not know if cashback services allow odd amounts. Most people ask for €20.

But regarding limits, different stores have different limits. Generous stores will let you pull out as much as €150, but often the limit is €20.