this post was submitted on 08 Nov 2024
98 points (95.4% liked)

chapotraphouse

13854 readers
745 users here now

Banned? DM Wmill to appeal.

No anti-nautilism posts. See: Eco-fascism Primer

Slop posts go in c/slop. Don't post low-hanging fruit here.

founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
 

Ugh these people suck so bad. On average, western leftists are worse than useless. Some bullet points are kinda interesting, even if annoying.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 59 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (21 children)

Gonna break down a few of these.

Heavy Emphasis on Recruitment: Vanguardist groups constantly need new members: to pay dues, volunteer their labor, recruit for the group, and replace burnt-out members. Lots of effort goes into social media and marketing, and actions are heavily influenced by how they can serve as a recruitment tool: the flashier the better. Waves of new people and energy help make the group feel active and relevant, and mask the steady trickle of people leaving.

Feds in a boardroom have discussed what kills orgs and determined the number one thing that kills orgs is retention, or lack of it. Membership falling below retention rate results in a shrinking org, which is a dying org as far as the feds are concerned.

Ambulance-Chasing and Coopting: Seeking energy and recruits, these groups will suddenly appear around “crisis of the moment” events. As we write this zine, their current target is Palestine solidarity efforts that have increased in response to Israel’s recent escalation of genocide in Gaza in 2023-2024. Watch for groups who appear at events uninvited and focus on distributing newspapers and collecting e-mail list signups. They’ll often bring things like mass-printed signs with their group’s name and website or a large banner advertising the group they can prominently display in photos of events to advertise. They may even hijack open mics and chants.

They are basically singling out PSL and FRSO here in the first part. But the second part is conflating those two groups with the tactics of RCA, formerly IMT, formerly Militant. They do show up to stuff, put up their branding and make it look like they're supposed to be there as a means of piggybacking of other people's organising. "Hijacking open mics" is funny af though, an open mic is.... Open? It's not hijacking is it. And a chant? It's a fucking chant anyone can do it.

Front Groups and Front Coalitions: Creating a front group or coalition is another way vanguards try tapping into movement energy to redirect to their own ends. The front is dominated by members of the vanguard without clear connection to the vanguard group, to better allow the vanguard to hide their politics and intentions. Its purpose is to find recruits for the vanguard, and to be a vehicle for the vanguard’s activities that appears to be separate from them.

Liberals do this? Pussyhat Project? Half the liberal lgbt groups? They're front groups created by liberals.

Deceptive and Dishonest Practices: The authoritarian politics of vanguards generally aren’t liked, so they’ll be kept below the surface. Vanguards publicly claim values that can attract people—like police abolition, supporting labor rights, and horizontal power—while hypocritically supporting police attacking workers in authoritarian nation-states they support, like Cuba, Iran, or China. How can you value someone’s consent and autonomy if you lie to them?

Nope. There's no deception whatsoever in any vanguard group. I have literally not seen an ML org that doesn't make you read Stalin. Bourgeoise police are not the same as proletarian police. Making this about Cuba in particular isn't going to win anyone over, this "Zine" would've done better to leave that part out because the point will be instantly dismissed by every Cuba supporter. BUT, this isn't actually designed to deradicalise anyone who gets into these orgs (more on that).

Party Lines in General: Vanguardist ideas of discipline and a “scientific” revolution that must be followed to a ‘T‘ require conformity, obedience, and strict binary thinking. The world is more nuanced than that, but this nuance isn’t allowed in vanguardist politics.

The revolutionary party is organised like a military hierarchy because it is fighting a class WAR and militaries are designed with that structure for a reason, they are the most resilient and effective organisational style that humans have come up with for war fighting.

Centralization: A vanguard needs a power structure they can exert control from. If it doesn’t exist, they may try creating it to place themselves or their close associates at the center.

Almost all political parties are centralised. Given my experience in liberal parties like UK Labour I would say they are LESS democratic and MORE centralised than ML orgs. Starmer practically annihilated any democracy that existed within that party, all of which was mostly created by Corbyn.

Redirecting Autonomous Efforts into Spaces They Control: Autonomous efforts and independent projects can be enticed into spaces a vanguard controls, often with promises of resources, a plea to not “duplicate efforts,” or “left unity.” The intent is to gain influence over the project. Like a mixture of Entryism and Cooptation.

I've always argued against doing this in my orgs. Maybe someone with a good media skillset could do a NEW project that is under the org's name in addition to their existing project (such as a radio or youtube or whatever) but orgs that take control of existing projects of members don't realise that they're annihilating the motivation of the person running that project. Projects live and die by motivation of the key people running them and it's very important that orgs get some awareness of that and allow members to simply have their projects and their recognition for them sometimes. If you give them that, they often become very loyal and are more willing to run the project in conjunction with the org.

Hyper-Focus on Bureaucracy: Getting the group stuck in loops of committee forming, decision-making, writing points of unity, establishing cadre leadership, etc. Most likely during power struggles and Entryist takeovers. Often causes non-vanguard members to leave in frustration.

Nah man this is what feds do to break orgs and waste time. Specifically they want more than 2-3 people making decisions on every single project because it slows everything to a fucking crawl. This is something orgs should largely avoid apart from major decisions.

Never-Ending Tasks: Revolutionary change will require lots of effort, but within vanguardist organizations the pressure to fulfill duties and demonstrate commitment and discipline often lead to members committing most of their time to the vanguard group. This can lead to relationships outside the group weakening from neglect, becoming socially dependent on the group, and eventually burning out without a support network to help them leave the group.

How dare orgs have work to do!?

Incidentally I've actually never met anyone that regretted the social relations they get from organising. Not even people that eventually left them. Maybe the drama and things but the actual social relations? No.

This is an attempt to make vanguard orgs sound similar to what people have seen of their racist conspiracy uncle who the whole family now doesn't talk to. To conflate the left with the far-right. It's not the same. People don't feel sad and lonely and isolated socially from the rest of the world in leftist groups.

Charismatic Leader: Vanguard groups often center around a charismatic leader or founder who is elevated to a level of importance. This can be a leader/founder of the group itself, or an ideological figurehead.

lenin-laugh yes hello, this is the ideological figurehead

Sheltering Abusers: Patriarchal violence is a serious recurring problem basically everywhere. But vanguardist groups often treat attempts at accountability as an attack on the group and their ideology, or a distraction from “the cause.” They become defensive, and in practice shield abusers while dismissing survivors of abuse.

There is no Epstein within the vanguard. Shut the fuck up, liberals have absolutely no leg to stand on in the face of the overwhelming evidence against them for pedophilia and sexual violence and literal presidential coverups. Patriarchal violence IS everywhere and the only reason this attack is used is because the left is BETTER about it which makes people more worried when hearing accusations. If we could compare communist orgs with liberal and fascist orgs on this issue I am 100% certain that communist orgs come out on top as having the least of it, the least covered up, and the most harshly dealt with when uncovered.

All large orgs will deal with it. And the larger they get the more they will.

Taking Credit for Others’ Work and Actions: Vanguards may take credit for events, actions, and work organized by other groups. This is particularly true for things that are flashy or popular, but other things may be claimed by the vanguard group if it seems like it will be useful for recruiting.

This is just repeating some of the above stuff I mentioned about motivation. It's a careful balance and orgs should do it better. Incidentally, which is it? Are vanguards taking all credit or are they hiding behidn front orgs to hide their involvement?

Lack of Care for Members and Vulnerable People: The thirst for attention-grabbing actions can lead to vulnerable people and the group’s members being used as means to an end, resources to be exploited. Many “flashy” actions, such as an occupation, require extensive preparation, consideration, and care to manage various risks of harm (to the extent that we can). Nothing can be made perfectly safe, but a vanguard’s sloppy approach to actions can put people through unnecessary harm for what is ultimately a PR stunt.

Stop calling major issues "PR Stunts". You are calling the Palestine protests against a genocide a PR stunt in the same breath as pretending you care about "vulnerable people". The person that wrote this is a snake speaking double with a forked tongue.

The people that care THE MOST are in these orgs.

[cont in reply]

[–] IzyaKatzmann@hexbear.net 29 points 6 months ago (1 children)

sometimes i womder where you get the energy to effort post comrade

i hope i can have a bit of your strength

spirit-bomb

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 30 points 6 months ago (2 children)

This is spite. And the fact that these things are definitely gonna come up thousands of times in the future and we should all coalesce around answers to them. The counter to this kind of "educate all the anticommunists" shit is educating the communists on counter-narrative.

It's like when Xinjiang played out in realtime with the narrative ever changing and huge google docs of disinformation and copy-paste lines were being dumped out for infowarfighters to use. The most effective thing MLs did in countering that was their own massive docs debunking it and mass educating and giving access to other MLs to those docs to quickly debunk and spread counter information.

This shit will spread and I just see some value in writing my thoughts down as I read it. I might copy paste some of them in future, then adapt em, then further evolve them. I often re-use and re-write myself over and over again over time because you get into the same stuff over and over again.

[–] Edie@hexbear.net 21 points 6 months ago (3 children)

you get into the same stuff over and over again

(It feels like) Communists have to know the entire history of the universe, the sciences, etc. and be able to recite it all at a moments notice.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 22 points 6 months ago

Yes

The issue is that there's a lot more anticommunists than there are communists. And the feds make sure that all the anticommunists are armed with lists upon lists of this stuff. This forces communists to correct this information. It slows us down, but it does not stop us and what we have on our side is that the numbers of reds are growing over time. A marxist political education can't be unlearned.

[–] Collatz_problem@hexbear.net 17 points 6 months ago

We should, actually, to be able to successfully apply historical materialism to practice. Owning libs is just a pleasant side effect.

[–] HelltakerHomosexual@hexbear.net 10 points 6 months ago

(It feels like) Communists have to know the entire history of the universe, the sciences, etc. and be able to recite it all at a moments notice.

having a handle on relevant things being discussed in popular culture is useful for organizing

[–] REgon@hexbear.net 11 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I often re-use and re-write myself over and over again over time because you get into the same stuff over and over again.

I've started just linking people past dunks, when they say the same stuff. Saves effort and it feels nice. I add them to a chain, and also give them a direct link. The chain is meant to shame them.

[–] Awoo@hexbear.net 7 points 6 months ago

I've done this before too but with big threads about the topic. Anything highly upvoted with lots of comments has a social reinforcing effect that makes people more willing to listen.

load more comments (19 replies)