this post was submitted on 07 Feb 2025
27 points (96.6% liked)

covid

883 readers
18 users here now

Try to include sources for posts

No Covid misinformation, including anti-vaxx, anti-mask, anti-lockdown takes.

COVID MINIMIZATION = BAN

This community is a safe space for COVID-related discussion. People who minimize/deny COVID, are anti-mask, etc... will be banned.

Off-topic posts will be removed

Jessica Wildfire's COVID bookmark list

Covid.Tips

COVID-safe dentists: (thanks sovietknuckles)

New wastewater tracking (replacing biobot): https://data.wastewaterscan.org/tracker

founded 3 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Terrarium@hexbear.net 4 points 5 days ago (2 children)

Hello friend, how many of these organizations of yours that exist will accommodate me by masking?

My org masks in all indoor spaces and most outdoor ones. If an outdoor event is very well-ventilated and we don't initially plan on requiring masks, we will still require masks if anyone requests it and this can be done anonymously.

I’ll give you a hint, because I have actually barked up this tree, assuredly unlike you: it’s zero.

You are objectively incorrect. My org isn't even the only one in my area with this attitude towards masks, there are 3 that for sure do the same kind of thing.

Your words are just as hollow as your criticism, I have heard it all before. Come back when you have something actually materially substantial to offer.

I did offer something substantial, which is that essays into the void are counterproductive, they provide a false catharsis, and our projects require actually organizing other people, something that was notably neglected in the article posted. The two are related: the essay into the void distracts the person making it and provides a catharsis that tends to displace doing the aforementioned organizing. The 3 or so orgs in my area that regularly mask? We met with one another to coordinate this and make it easier to work in coalition. We have, accordingly, done irl work to agitate otg for policy change in governmental and non-governmental capacities as well as direct action to ensure materials are available for people to keep themselves safe and to connect capitalism to COVID neglect in a way that builda orgs and ongojng projects.

Like did you actually read any of this shit? That’s your call to action. Wear a mask! Distribute masks to your workers, and among your org! Filter the air! Accomodate those who can’t call off to attend events or risk showing up in person by holding virtual meetings, something we did for years that was very much possible and then just stopped!

Those are calls to individualistic action you could pull from any liberal pro-masker. This is not organizing and not a way to actually build power and achieve our shared goals. It may seem like I am splitting hairs, but I assumed it would be understood that calls to action means things like drawing people in to an organizing space, building lists, or even just raising funds for a left org so that their organized efforrts have cash. When you make agitprop for organizing, you generally use it for a strategic purpose that builds an org, an event, capacity for action, and so on. I did not even think of a call to action that is pure individualism.

With that said, neither the quoted passage nor the article actually call on anyone to do these things. There is not actually a call to action there. The closest it gets is at the very end where there is the typical "what must happen is..." statement that includes mask mandates. Which is not a call to action but a policy plank attached to no vehicle. This is another tendency of anemic Western leftist approaches. It does not make you or the author a bad person or anything, but it is counterproductive to give it any real value. It is not actually going to do anything positive but it will lead people to feel it is important work, and so they start doing the same and doing it over and over again thinking that spinning those wheels is getting somewhere.

All things very, very doable at an organizational and institutional level — strange how none of you who speak like this will do it or work to enact any policy to help accomplish any of it!

I have done that, actually. I don't want to doxx myself as I am not sure how common the policy outcomes were elsewhere, but I will say that we used a coalition to get tangible, material results.

Want to plug a group? None of them do any fucking action worth plugging in this context.

If you know what action is worth plugging and know how to organize with like-minded people, you could of course create an organization and plug that. I am not being snippy, I just want to repeat what our ability to effect change looks like. It is to get people together to learn and take action, with a panoply of tools at our disposal all based on mass (per various definitions) action. One example of using agitprop to actually do something is to plug an org so that those who are agitated by what is written can become personally engaged, join actions, and otherwise build power with us.

The closest is city mask blocs, and guess what? That’s also mentioned in the article, and it is a poor substitute to concrete institutional efforts, which, wow, is also mentioned within the piece!

Mentioning things is not plugging them for people to get involved. "Concrete institutional efforts" does not provide any onramp for someone that agrees with the author. They can think, "yeah that sounds nice" and then maybe Google a little to see if there is already a web presence for that in their area or something, but most people will just keep reading because there was no specific ask. These are the core tools of organizing, of getting people to actually do the things you believe need to be done. Requests must be directly, repeatedly, and strategically.

DSA, PSL, any of these big organizations in the US are not even at this level, which is the barest of bare minimums for addressing the primary contradiction of access in a world where COVID is still very much a threat. That is the point of the essay.

The DSA is a dysfunctional, liberal organization that has no rudder whatsoever and is dominated by chauvinists and constant grievances between members. I still sometimes point people to it because you can gain organizing skills there if you are picky about what you work on and because just being part of the wider community overcomes the greatest barrier to being a lifelong organizer. PSL has a silly line on masking under the pretense that it makes it difficult to connect with everyday people. Maybe if you were going after chuds it would, but we should not try to coddle chuds to agitate. So in that sense I agree. But what has my agreement accomplished? I already had that opinion. Most people don't even know what the DSA is, let alone PSL. Who is the audience and what are they supposed to do as a result of reading this?

Re: primary contradiction of access, I have no idea what that means. What dialectic is posited? What are the other contradictions of access to consider?

Currently, the exact same thing is happening at the institutional levels (from all sides) and the individual and organizational levels: nothing!

If we consider institutional levels to be liberal institutions, then yes, of course. Capitalists want normalization of the pandemic for various reasons. If you include left spaces, it is a mix where most are ableist and following liberals' lead while some do a pretty decent job, all things considered.

And instead of actually listening to these “calls to action”, you do this shit all of you love to do: you respond with a patronizing screed at me to get my boots on the ground and do something

It feels like you are implying that you are the author, as that is who I addressed. You may want to keep your hexbear account and the identity of the article's author distinct, even if the author's name is a pseudonym. InfoSec is undervalued. I will edit and delete this part of my comment if this is the case and you would like to similarly delete this portion of your comment for InfoSec reasons.

Anyways, I don't think your comment applies to me. Aside from therr not being calls to action in this essay, I do actually do irl work on this topic.

to “plug a name” of a nonexistent political organization

I did not tell you or anyone to do that.

speaking past all of us who are doing exactly this to deaf ears.

I don't understand what this means. The author is not doing the things I mentioned, the absense of which is my critique! I am not speaking past them and do not presume to even be talking to them, though the critiqur criticizes their approach. The actual audience of what I am saying is whoever happena to come across this ppst. This is the first time I have replied in this comment section. How could I be speaking past anyone? And why do you falsely assume I don't do any of this kind of work? This is not a productive way to engage with comrades. It is purely wasted energy in the defense of another waste of energy. Think of what else we could be doing.

Things I have done, we have done, that you and the rest of your cadre ignore to continue the outdated tactics of dead unions and political messaging from a hundred years ago or more.

Me and the rest of my cadre? What? You don't know anything about me, let alone what work I have done in this context. Please be more comradely in your responses.

Not a very dialectical approach!

What would be a dialectical approach? I have not set that bar up anywhere in this conversation, so I wonder at what you think it means.

What do you think you accomplish posting something like this, then, aside from making yourself look like a fool?

My goal would be to agitate people away from the false catharsis that dominates anemic and often counterproductive Western leftist patterns of thought.

[–] Ivysaur@hexbear.net 5 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

You are objectively incorrect. My org isn't even the only one in my area with this attitude towards masks, there are 3 that for sure do the same kind of thing.

I am involved in COVID-based organizing, one group in my city who has managed to maintain through collective bargaining mandatory masking at a single small community center, and we are a huge, huge minority in any other capacity and do not accomplish much more than mutual aid. This is not an explicitly communist organization at all. I know of none that are, and this is not a small city. Extremely jealous that you are somehow involved with three other (!) supposedly communist orgs who mandate masking all immediately accessible to you (“contradiction of access” means this is not the case for everyone, “objectively”) and of this miraculous (American?) city you live in that actually listens to you or any disabled people for that matter about policy. Can you tell me what communist orgs you are involved with or know of that still mandate masking policies to participate, or support remote organization for members with limited accessibility or work requirements? Because I don’t believe you.

[–] Terrarium@hexbear.net 5 points 5 days ago

I am involved in COVID-based organizing, one group in my city who has managed to maintain through collective bargaining mandatory masking at a single small community center, and we are a huge, huge minority in any other capacity and do not accomplish much more than mutual aid. This is not an explicitly communist organization at all. I know of none that are, and this is not a small city.

I have been involved in work that spans entire regions. Cities vary wildly in how active they are and what tendencies they are populated by (e.g. mostly Trot city vs. mostly DSA libs vs. almost nothing, and so on). I'm sure there are enough reasonably large cities with very little work on this topic that you could be in one.

Extremely jealous that you are somehow involved with three other (!) supposedly communist orgs

I didn't say they were communist.

orgs who mandate masking all immediately accessible to you

I guess they are accessible. They are orgs my org works with or otherwise has collaborated witb.

(“contradiction of access” means this is not the case for everyone, “objectively”)

Does it? It sounds like pseudoleft jargon and "primary contradiction of access" is nowhere on a Google search. "contradiction of access" appears as a critique of Latino representation in academia. It seems odd to expect anyone to know what you are referring to and I am still unclear on your meaning. Particularly given that your previous comment would be the one wearing the broad brushing hat in this scenario.

and this miraculous (American?) city you live in that actually listens to you or any disabled people for that matter about policy.

For infosec reasons I am not describing the level of government at which tangible results were achieved. But it is not miraculous to organize and achieve tangible results, even on this topic. What would be miraculous would be an internet screed leading to such policy impacts.

Can you tell me what communist orgs you are involved with

No and for InfoSec reasons that is not an appropriate question to ask on this kind of forum. Please do not ask that of others.

or know of that still mandate masking policies to participate

Same answer because this would give away my region of the world and possibly my org by association.

And again, why do you keep bringing up communist orgs? I haven't said anything about communism or communists.

or support remote organization for members with limited accessibility or work requirements?

While I won't name them for the same reasons, there are even more orgs that will do this than who require proper masking and similar COVID prioritization. Orgs I actively dislike and have not yet mentioned will regularly have remote meetings to accomodate exactly that - particularly those with work schedules that disallow in-person meetings. I have helped them mediate conflicts and worked in coalitions with them in the past.

Because I don’t believe you.

You are free to not believe me if you'd like, but that wouod not be a reasonabke conclusion.

[–] FishLake@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

My org masks in all indoor spaces and most outdoor ones. If an outdoor event is very well-ventilated and we don't initially plan on requiring masks, we will still require masks if anyone requests it and this can be done anonymously.

Oh cool. Wanna DM me a link to your org’s anonymous masking request page? I’ll request everyone wear masks for you.

[–] Terrarium@hexbear.net 2 points 5 days ago

No. I practice good InfoSec and recommend you do the same.

And the situations where we do not, by default, require attendees to wear masks are fully outdoor spaces where we do not expect tight crowds and do expect a green safety level.