this post was submitted on 19 Aug 2025
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By economic growth i mean more production. This production can be marketable but not represent an actual wealth gain. If i produce a shitty headphone that breaks in a week of use, the world would be better off without it, but it did contribute to the growth of the economy when i sold it to some unfortunate soul. In this sense, a reduction in production may not really represent a reduction in wealth globally. A better production can have a way smaller volume than the current global production while still giving us more actual wealth to live with. Thats why i say economic growth is not quality of life. Of course theres a correlation in the actual data today, but my point is that this correlation is not necessary, its an empirical correlation, not a logical one, and it is something that may change in the future.
If we cant dissociate economic growth from well being, then i take your point and agree with it.
Regarding UBI, if it is done in a way that emancipates people, instead of just enabling and maintaining conditions for enslaving people, great. And from my perspective this would probably also entail a spontaneous degrowth.
I think our views are compatible. Im not defending a forced degrowth nor hope that people do it voluntarily out of nowhere. But political measures to redistribute wealth and improve living standards, like what you envision with UBI, could lead to a natural and widely accepted degrowth, which would be positive.
The bad product possibility example is not a good argument against abundance. Abundance economics permits pluralist sharing in wealth. Scarcity, Oligarchist monopoly protectionist, economics is inherently economic oppression for power concentration that will further influence rulership to economically disenfranchise the slave class. Carbon taxes does make distant imports, especially of bad products, more expensive unless shipping options are decarbonized.
Carbon taxes funding a significant portion of UBI leads to massive economic growth. Massive employment, without taxpayer funding, in much faster energy transition capital investments is a lot of jobs. UBI itself leads to massive economic growth as well. more people can afford all necessities. Better paying jobs to afford even more consumption. The rich get richer even with higher taxes as they profit from selling more stuff. The combination means clean growth. Clean growth makes everyone happier and pro peace. Legitimizing degrowth exterminates those unable to afford resistance to oligarchy.
I think you're missing my point now. Maybe the headphone example is weak, but it illustrates the point. Abundance is not necessarily abundance of wealth. Im arguing that reducing general production and increasing wealth are compatible. Making the distribution of wealth depend on abundant production, independently of quality, only overworks people and pollute the world.
This seems too general. Defending degrowth may do that if its done in the specific way you have described before, but not generally. Resistance to oligarchy and general improvements to quality of life could have degrowth as a consequence, not the other way around. What you seem to be criticizing is that "other way around" thesis.
Scarcity is the intended opposite of abundance. The US economic model of corporatism, oligarchy, and capital supremacism promotes scarcity and protection from competitition/disruption because those policies provide the highest ROI from higher sales prices. Abundance necessarily means more jobs than producing less. Lower prices makes buyers richer, including companies that can leverage cheaper raw materials to make more/cheaper end products, employing more people by making society richer in affording more of their goods. Refusing cheap chinese energy (solar) makes America poorer. Much more expense in job creation to deploy solar than the cost of the panels. This is done to protect oil oligarchy extortion power. Where China has a competitive advantage in electric motors and batteries, incorporating their technology in domestic factories, or just importing their finished products, would greatly improve domestic EV value production, making Americans richer.
Wealth defined as producing more useful to people things means abundance = wealth. I understand that GDP definition means wealth = overpaying the most for things no matter how oppressed workers are made by minimizing labour demand by limiting production, can create a bigger score, especially if pensions and 401k schemes benefit from extortion economic model, and property owners are empowered to limit competing housing supply. I understand that it is possible for the extortion and slavery model to provide a higher "official" wealth score. But this is a failure in understanding of, at least my intended, meaning of social wealth.
The US political order has no hope of resisting oligarchy. DNC is a zionist first, oligarchist fundraising second, political organization, gaslighting the left into supporting Israel third. Winning a non priority if GOP will be more Israel friendly. Bernie, who DNC will always oppose, economic policies are absolutely so stupid as to be intentional stupidity to lose. The moderate candidate in both parties is actually the most extremist zionist warmongering supremacist that will prioritize war over any social pluralism. Only UBI/freedom dividends can disempower the US empire. As mentioned, UBI results in exponential clean growth instead of degrowth.