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Who knew 1989 was an uneventful year in China
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2023
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This is the take that bothers me the most, as if the most aggressive and outspoken faction of any group exist only to drag the more respectable members down by association.
I would be one thing to say, "I don't understand that group", but it's quite remarkable to say, "I understand that group so little that they must be the opposition in disguise"
Eh, only a small minority of hexbears are fascists, but almost all hexbears tolerate fascists. All the fascists have to do is walk in and say "NATO is bad, Ukraine is bad, libs are bad, vote for Trump because he is a big lovable goofball" and the other hexbears are like aight let's own the shitlibs.
A huge portion of hexbear users are trans or otherwise LGBTQ. Ask them what they think fascists want to do to them. Fascists also massacre socialists — often with American support, as in Indonesia, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador, Argentina, and Bolivia. Ask them how they feel about this. Hexbear users do hold some complex views on topics like China and Russia, but they have reasons for this and would tell you if you asked. You should consider talking to them, instead of making things up about them in an authoritative tone of voice. You'll be hard-pressed to find a hexbear user who doesn't want Trump dead or in jail.
Maybe I should ask Jessica Watkins, who explicitly supported fascists, and is now being misgendered and put in the wrong prison by fascists, for supporting fascists.
Trans and genderqueer people can be just as stupid as Cishet people and vote for the leapords eating faces party. It's not like fascism actually benefits people, it's predatory to vulnerable people.
I have interacted quite a bit already. I got lots of animal poop pictures and a lot of people requesting that I post a picture of my genitalia.
I've seen a number of comments from Hexbears supporting DJT and not a single comment expressing this.
show me one
*make sure it’s sincere though, because I’m gonna go over there and ask the user what they think of donald trump and why
I'm trying to look up the thread. I think my instance might have defederated, I can't find my comments.
Ick.
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/26/990274685/how-extremists-weaponize-irony-to-spread-hate
Here, I grabbed one for you, full of sus-looking comments. Just pick one and I’ll ask the user what their sincere thoughts are. It’s a thread from three days ago about trump’s mugshot. https://hexbear.net/post/422814?scrollToComments=false
Aha thank you! That's definitely one of the threads I was looking for, although the particular "vote Trump" plus comments I haven't found yet.
Go to the actual URL, hexbear.net
You’re reaching for some “fascists always pretend to be joking until they’re not” thing, but the Hexbear community originally formed around a deeply irony poisoned socialist comedy podcast called Chapo Trap House, and hexbears themselves are unsurprisingly also very irony poisoned. On top of that they were an insular unfederated community for three years, with no reason to make their banter intelligible to outsiders. They have a rich set of in-jokes and an emoji list a mile long. Your exposure to them is probably one thread where you argued with them and ten threads of lemmy.world users making shit up about them in absentia.
The podcast Chapo Trap House basically disowned r/chapotraphouse, so pretty much for the poisoned irony getting out of hand.
It feels like r/the_donald, which was also irony, until it wasn't, and suddenly the internet is swarmed with "ironic" Trump memes until he wins the actual presidency, stacks SCOTUS, which rolls back RvW.
Maybe 10 years ago I would be down with all this irony. But there are real life consequences harming women right now, that are not so ironic.
It's time to wake up, grow up, pay attention to the consequences and decide if irony and chaos is worth incidentally supporting fascism.
It's blatant though? They use right wing talking points for everything and it's all dog whistles?
"Geopolitics exists as a binary, and on some issues they agree with the opposite binary from me".
Worse actually, "they might agree with me on one issue but they disagree on another, so they must be pretending to agree with me to begin with"
On hexbear, geopolitics exists as whatever hexbears feel like owns the shitlibs the most at that particular moment.
Sometimes, Russia is just months away from a well planned and strategized victory, against an evil Nazi Ukraine.
Other times, everything is a mastermind NATO move that's all benefiting NATO, and Ukraine is just the meatgrinder victim.
What feels most alt-right about hexbear isn't any particular position, but the fact that there's no particular position. No logical cohesiveness, no rooted in solid reality. It's superfluid ever changing dream reality.
I think the parallel with right wing extremism is because they're both pushed by the CCP. They use a divide and conquer approach via LLMs on social media to weaken political opponents.
is Cuba a far-right regime? They just passed the most comprehensive pro-LGBTQ legislation package on the planet.
Go ask them for their opinions about Russia and China. You'll get unanimous agreement that Putin is a homophobic capitalist reactionary and Russia is not a socialist or left-wing state. For China, you'll get disagreements, but most of the takes will be pretty nuanced either way. Some believe Deng's reforms were necessary to avoid economic strangulation, others are deeply suspicious of the direction China is headed.
This is just not true lol
Just a point of clarification: you think the USSR was a far-right regime?
They didn't say the USSR, they said modern day China and Russia
See, this is exactly what I mean by "I understand them so little that they must be the opposition in disguise"
If you tried at all, youd understand that they're position on "modern day Russia and China" is based on the idea of critical support. They evaluate policy decisions against "does this bring the working class closer to solidarity or not".
I.e. on the Ukraine war, their position is basically "U.S. Involvement in any war is a net-negative to worker solidarity in the country of question". None there support Russia's invasion, but they think Americas involvement spells the end of any socialist coalition to begin with.
But again, "I understand them so little they must be a part of the opposition". They have a different (definitively leftist) understanding of the war than you do. Doesn't make them right-wing.
Stop sucking off Winnie.
Lol
When it comes to Russia bombing their cities and raping their women and children, is that positively or negatively influencing working class solidarity?
Negatively.
When it comes to supplying lethal aid to Ukraine to continue the war, though, they'd also say negatively.
For the record I don't agree, but that is their position and I understand it.
Yeah, well when Hexbear hears that wives and daughters are being raped and says "giving Ukrainians weapons to help them defend their families from being raped is bad for worker solidarity", it makes Hexbear look like a bunch of rape apologizists.
I'm not sure why people are surprised that a group largely made up of ML leftists would have a flippant attitude toward geopolitical violence.
My main point is, still, that accusing them of being "right wing" just because you don't understand their ideological stance is dumb.
Basically the only difference between ML and the alt-right is that the alt-right wants violence against "libtards", and ML's want violence against "shitlibs", while being insufferably snobby about pretending to be morally superior because they didn't use an abliest slur.
It's like you just took a fascist and put them on a liberal's moral high horse.
Nah, I think what you mean is that's the only relevant difference to you. Nevermind that MLs have a body of economic theory, if the most important detail about them is their willingness to use force then I think it's fair to suggest your prevailing ideology isn't socialism at all, it's liberalism. Not that you can't be socialist-leaning, but if the only difference you see between MLs and far-right conservatism is violence, then you seem blind to the thing that you have in common with them.
I'm all for Marxism, but I haven't observed the "body of economic theory" having any relevance, except as a snooby self-righteous justification for authoritarianism and violence.
Even if you were to strip all moral interpretation away, violence and authoritarianism is unstable and ineffective. ML's in practice are fake progressives, because they don't even care for finding a stable effective solution. The progression of society is no longer the point.
From their perspective, all states (especially western liberal states) use violence to enforce their capitalistic order. "Authority" is broadly interpreted as ubiquitous, and all successful revolutions have been to some degree violent.
Not to suggest all authority and violence is the same, but to them, the liberal apprehension to utilize violence is a self-imposed handicap that not even their opposition undertakes.
Similar to leftists frustration with establishment Democrats from using their majority to enact progressive reform.
To them, the only distinction left is the economic structuring that violence is utilized on behalf of.
Again, not my personal position, but this "auth communists are the same as right wing authoritarians" is just willfully ignorant.
** And take notice that while ML's claim to not support Russia, they'll often jump to Russia's defense, despite Russia funding alt-right and neo-Nazi movements in America
Because to them, US/western capitalist hegemony is the global opposition to all socialist movements. That Russia is not a socialist state doesn't change their desire to see western hegemony weakened to make possible broader socialist solidarity.
So it sounds like the plan is support fascism, for what? To sacrifice who knows how many women, trans people, genderqueer people, POC, just so after society falls there possibly might be a Hail Mary throw at achieving communism?
Certainly not "support", no. But frankly, the US has repeatedly been the ones to arm the fascists. That the US is getting involved in this particular fight has probably more to do with their opposition to Russian influence than any stand for justice or protection of the innocent. To say there isn't much trust in the US acting in anyone's interest except their own would be a monumental understatement.
I would say (everything beyond this point is my own speculation, since they aren't here to answer your question), they would rather a treaty be struck sooner rather than later, which would mean the US easing up on lethal aid. I think their general position is that not Russia, Ukraine, nor the US have the interests of the actual working class (or women or LGTBQ+ people) in mind, and the sooner the war ends the fewer people die and the sooner the real work of fighting for those rights can begin. But there will be nothing good about the reconstruction that happens after the war. Ukraine will be beholden to US interests and perpetually in the middle of a geopolitical conflict with Russia for the foreseeable future (no matter what the resolution of the war is). The whole situation is shit, but "let them fight until the bitter end" is probably the least empathetic take I could think of.
I really hate that anything less than "Russia will loose at all costs" will get you lambasted with accusations of simping for Russia. There are precious few here who are willing to acknowledge that there are no good options with this war. I guess it's easier to let the anger drive decisions when there are no satisfactory solutions to the conflict.