1214
POV) You use Windows 11 and set up Pihole for the first time.
(sh.itjust.works)
This is AFTER debloating all the MS bs as much as I can.
The amount of MS telemetry is just mindboggling.
Devil’s advocate: basically the only proper way to figure out how people are using your product and how you can tweak it to achieve its goal is by firing events and including relevant metadata such as how much time they spent on a screen or how far they scrolled. Telemetry is not necessarily “evil” by default.
The other side of that is that the telemetry data never gives you a "why" of something.
For example, users might spend a long time at a screen because they are thinking about what to do, or they are confused by the options and can't figure out which option they need.
This is why a QA team coupled with a large amount of beta testers is invaluable and necessary.
Telemetry, in the context of software development and UX design, is either a decision by the misinformed or just an excuse to save costs by axing the Windows QA department.
In reality it's likely the data is being sold off. But in either case, that's data Microsoft isn't entitled to (from a moral/privacy perspective).
... anything!
You forgot about the classic, "Where do you want to go today"
Dammit! I forgot to feed my bicycle last night! No wonder it was at my bedroom door ringing its bell nonstop.
And you recently had your cat stolen because you forgot to lock it before you went into the bike shop to get more food, right?
I just couldn't get the lock looped properly. Cats do not obey the laws of physics.
Well, that's your hard lock!!
I replied elsewhere but YES! Telemetry is notorious for causing devs to hyperfocus on shit features due to their high usage. Just because a user is clicking X over Y doesn’t mean Y sucks and X is better. Maybe Y is in their periphery, or camouflaged by the background artwork or worded badly. But hey, since X gets a lot of clicks, it must be good, right?
That's very silly. That's actually such a ridiculous opinion I'm pretty sure you've left out some assumption that would make it make sense.
Telemetry is useful, but there is no accountability on how it's being used, so ultimately it could be used in bad faith and the average user wouldn't ever know.
Focus groups and customer surveys work really well for knowing the "why" of something
I totally agree, but where I have a problem (and I imagine a lot of other users here) is that you can't fully opt out. You can only set "minimal" tracking but not none.
You can if you have enterprise version.
This is the solution to a lot of this stuff.
Also, Firefox, lemmys beloved browser, sends telemetry by default. You have to dig through menus you didn't know existed to even find out, and then disable.
Not only to Mozilla, but third parties as well.
Sure it's scummy, but it's definitely not hidden. When you open the settings page Data Collection is a top level option
It's hidden in the fact it's not presented upon first startup, it never mentions it, and it's at the very bottom of the settings page.
You have to discover it. And who knows how long you had it enabled before you find it.
It's interesting. I always get a pop-up asking about opting in for sending telemetry when installing Firefox. It was never hidden or the option selected for me. I opt out and it stays opted out.
Firefox is the lesser of two evils. It turned to shit the moment they took Google's poisoned money. The money also made the Mozilla org put on airs and think they're some world-changing UN body or some shit and lose focus on their core business of making web browsers.
Not sure about this. When I installed Firefox, it asked me if I allowed it to collect data and run studies (I answered yes). Also, as far as I remember, I never changed the Marketing Data setting and it was off.
Mozilla is also HIGHLY political, paying large sums of money to hardcore anti-white organizations.
Are these the "anti-white" supporters you're talking about? https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/leadership/
Seems odd that these anti-white warriors would be overwhelmingly white themselves. I'm guessing you think the only competent people they could find to hire were white?
Focus groups and customer surveys work really well.
Not in the slightest unfortunately. Often customers don't even know what customers want, and the subgroup that actually responds to these aren't necessarily "average"
That seems like one hell of a hand waving away the opinion.
You do realize that was used for decades before computer's and the Internet was a thing, right?
And they do things like blind tests so they get audiences that are average.
No, they don't, not for what telemetry is used for.
Actually, except for the deepest debugging data that only a programmer would want, you're incorrect. And the conversation wasn't just about that one minority type of data set.
Once again, no.
Focus group and survey can help a lot as to the "why", or the perception of things. Telemetry helps with the quantitative, the how and the what quite a lot more. Users often can't even remember the sequence of events, or even how they reached a given situation.
All that information is important for the dev itself sure, but also for the UI people, the UX, the product manager, etc.
I mean, I just retired from a career as a self-employed incorporated UI/UX software developer for Fortune 100 companies, but what the fuck do I know, right?
The data telemetry that you are describing is data overload and ends up being not efficient to know. The truth gets lost in the quantity noise.
You have to study the usage patterns of how people use the software, by actually watching people use the app, and you don't get that from just some counter in memory counting how many times a certain button was pressed, there's no gestalt in that data set. Great data for selling to third parties, but not for helping you with the UX of an app.
It's my professional advice that I feel confident in the opinion I expressed on this matter, learned from literal experience on the ground.
It's my professional opinion, as a current software engineer that what I said is my reality. If your telemetry was useless, it's because it was poorly done, what can I say?
Are you an expert on the subject being discussed?
I am.
Also, there's just one reality.
How, exactly, can telemetry be collected poorly?
You totally ignore my points of collecting that much data becomes ineffective and becomes 'white noise', as well as how that data would benefit resale more than it would UX analysis.
You could just move on, Internet Warrior.
You're trying to tell an expert on the subject we're discussing that they're wrong about something that they're telling you they're very sure of, from many years of experience.
I'm using telemetry to figure out what's wrong, what's used and what isn't used, what fails and what's reliable, what was done when it failed, etc.
You can call yourself an expert as much as you want, it's a tool that's useful to me, so you saying it's white noises and not useful bears no weight
Also, calling someone an internet warrior is funny / ironic coming from someone who's doing exactly the same...
That's moving the goalpost. We were talking about improving UX for humans, not bug tracking.
You can gather that from non-telemetry means as well. Also, if you're adding functionality into an application without the analysis and design portion of the development cycle not identifying them as little-used features, then you're doing software development wrong.
Well, I can't stop you from putting your fingers in your ears and going "LA! LA! LA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" either, but that doesn't make you right, or smart.
Me? I listen when an expert in a field tells me something (especially when its for free!), it usually benefits me in the long run.
How is it moving the goalposts? It started with you saying the focus group are a good way to know how people use your products. I keep stating they the actual metrics are better in some aspects than the subjective opinion of some users about how they think they use it.
After that, you're making some shit up about improper development cycle that comes out of nowhere, but sure.
What good advice could I take from what you wrote the whole time? "You don't have to even try to comprehend what the other person said. Just flaunt authority argument and speak with conviction until they stop arguing" is the best I could make out of this whole interaction I guess.
You're not being intellectually honest.