493
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 09 Nov 2023
493 points (91.7% liked)
politics
19244 readers
2033 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Its possible, but how smooth brained would someone have to be to vote for Trump over this?
Many just won't vote.
Which is still absolutely absurd, because any Democrat who doesn't vote for Biden is implicitly granting his Republican opponent a vote. This opponent may be Trump, but even if it isn't, it's still a Republican whose position on Israel and the conflict will make Biden's response look measured.
Many people are angered by Biden's response, but for pro-Palestinian supporters it's cutting off your nose to spite your face to not vote this cycle for Biden. You're actively allowing an even worse option.
To go against voting is to go against democracy itself. It blows my mind that democrats don't want to vote when republicans will.
Democrats can be really dumb sometimes. Too many would rather stick to idealistic principles because at least then when they lose they can claim the high road and a persecution complex.
Maybe it's not much of a "complex" when that persecution actually then happens (like the Dobbs decision), but if Democrats would just shut up and vote with the best option available instead of not voting at all, maybe we'd win more. Trump wouldn't have been elected in 2016 if Democrats had turned out in the same numbers they did in 2008 but instead 4 million Dems just didn't show up.
If Democrats won more, we could at least start to implement changes like Instant-Runoff Voting or doing away with the Electoral College. Republicans don't want any of those changes, because they know it weakens their position. But so many liberals just refuse to vote because there's no "good" option and refuse to vote for the option that even enables a "good" choice, while any conservative will do anything they can to vote for anyone willing to put an (R) next to their name. It's so fucking juvenile and I'm still ashamed to admit I once used to believe it too.
Don't get me wrong, both the AOC and the GOP are pure evil and there are both good and terrible people in those organizations, but when people say that "a vote is a waste" it makes my sight turn red.
The only reason not to vote is if no candidate has even a single policy that you agree with, otherwise, vote ffs.
And another thing, the voting mentality of the states is the reason we are stuck in a duopoly here. If someone truly does not want to vote for either party, at the very least vote for a third option so that party may potentially get seats and actually partake in the next election. As I said, the only way to waste a vote is precisely to not vote, and all a party needs to get seats is 5% of the popular vote.
As much as the democrats want to believe this, it isn't the only alternative. Maybe it will just make some people stay home on election day
"Silence is Violence"
Anyone who doesn't vote for Biden could be complicit in a 2024 Trump Regime. Don't like that? Get him primaried by someone who will also be able to beat Trump.
Now is not the time to be an accelerationist.
Yeah I get it. But "get the incumbent president primaried by someone who goes on to still win the election" is not a fantastic option for a potential voter is it? If you just don't want to support someone who is standing by while what you consider to be a genocide is happening, this is your only viable option?
It is shit. The best solution is for Biden to take action before the number of dead mounts even more. Call out Israeli crimes as strongly as you call out those from Hamas. This is what any self respecting progressive president would have to do on this situation.
But if that doesn't happen? No consequence. People are supposed to dutifully line up and say "more please" because the political system is so fundamentally broken.
I'm not American, but if I was obviously I would still vote for Biden. I just don't like to see the demonization of this quite understandable (imo) position. If you can't stomach doing that, the problem isn't you so much as the whole system. You should vote Biden and then the VERY NEXT DAY be out on the street demanding electoral reform.
Apologies for the length but I think this sums up my point: what would Biden have to do to make it not worth voting for him? What could he get away with?
Short of something Trump-level, Biden is going to win the Primary. There's no maybe on that. The incumbency advantage might be beatable in the General, but it's monumental. Quite certainly him representing the **majority ** Democratic take on the Israel war is not going to lose him the Primary.
Israel was attacked by Palestine. They were attacked by Hamas, but Hamas rules Palestine. Based on internationally agreed-upon rules of engagement, they get to bloody Hamas back. We both know the problem isn't Israel hitting back, it's them not really caring about civilian damage and their desire to simply take over the West Bank. Anything we do strongly against Israel is going to be against most of our allied countries and cost us the Israel alliance. Interestingly, the running trend in the US has been isolationism, something both parties have started to agree on, and everyone's favorite Bernie Sanders as well when he ran in 2016 and 2020. But now we're mad Biden took a fairly Isolationist "but please don't wipe them out" point of view?
What do progressives want? Do we want isolationism or do we just want to pick and choose our wars based on personal opinion? I don't like Israel, but we're supposed to be committing to getting less involved in international politics. For some, that just seems like it means "let's support our enemies and not our allies". Why can't we just support NEITHER side, like everyone has been demanding Democrats do?
I'm assuming you don't actively support Hamas, right?
Ahhhh... I should've read before I started replying. You're missing something. One of the few things Trump and Bernie agreed on in 2016 was the desire for the US to stop trying to police the damn world. Our progressive wing, until very recently, wanted us to stay out of the Middle East until we no longer have a choice. We thought that meant not supporting Israel, but if we're being honest it means also not condemning them until they go well past "following the rules of engagement".
The position of letting Trump win in protest for Biden doing what a majority of his voters want? He very much admonished Israel not to occupy Palestine and not to take action with excess civilian casualties. He's insisting Israel hold to a stricter set of rules of engagement than most countries would if another country led an unprovoked attack against civilians. We cannot forget that Hamas is the ruling party of Palestine. At the very least, Israel is entitled to try to step in and replace Palestine's leadership with someone who won't attack Israel. Except we don't trust Israel, and Biden doesn't trust Israel, to do that in good faith.
I don't think I could criticize the length of your reply considering my own :)
I hope we can get someone better in the primary