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this post was submitted on 29 Jan 2024
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Risa
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I get your point. You're saying that "subliminal" wokeness is better than "in your face" wokeness because the later messes with the core of the series.
Honestly, I agree. Unless it is a show dedicated to social issues like racism, sexism or homphobia, try to keep the wokeness subliminal. Just show that it's fine for these things to happen, that it is normal and acceptable, that it isn't a big deal. Don't make it the whole show, it's just awkward.
I prefer when they show me what reality should be like. LGBTQ people in our social groups as if nothing special was happening at all. Once it becomes preachy and brainwashy, I'm out.
That's what they did. Stamets and Culber were just there. Grey and Adira were just there. They used elements of the symbiote story as an allagory but their NB status just was. It seems like you're making it bigger in your mind.
I'm assuming you're not a racist or homophobic so how can something that's true "become brainwashy"? Doesn't brainwashing imply a reduction in critical thinking? You may not like the "preachy" way facts are presented but they are still facts. Forcefully pushing ideas is preaching, not brainwashing.
I think it is forced exposure, trying to program people. I don't think it is bad if it helps spread tolerance, I just don't enjoy watching stuff that forcefully pushes ideas, even if I agree with those ideas.
I think that's exactly what the people calling this "too woke" are about. Like, exposure is so forced and obvious that it ruins the show for them. It doesn't feel like a show anymore, more like advertisement for ideologies.
I don't think they are saying "please no homosexuals on TV", they are saying "please, focus on the plot, not on the social issues that surround homosexuality".
As for my personal preference, I've always thought sex in movies is just awkward in general.
Since these characters were introduced people have said what you're saying over and over. Always with the same "I don't have a problem with gay/trans/NB but..." disclaimer. Then they refuse to give examples of the characters doing anything other than existing. This thread is a good example. Please refresh my memory. Which episode(s) focus "on the social issues that surround homosexuality."
Outside of the scene where Adira tells Stamets their pronouns and the use of those pronouns, give me one line, in one scene, in one episode, of one season that would have to be changed if Adira was a cis straight human woman hosting the symbiote of her deceased cis straight Trill boyfriend.
Give me one line, in one scene, in one episode, of one season that would have to be changed if either Stamets or Culber was a woman.
To be clear, although I don't remember any, I'm not saying you couldn't find any examples. I'm just curious what constitutes "forced and obvious" plot elements that are "advertisement(s) for ideologies" that "ruins the show" for you.
Without examples all anyone hears is you bitching about the existence of these characters the way Archie Bunker would have bitched about Uhura simply existing.
It's not ruining anything for me. I just said I understood his point. Everyone has a different threshold for what they consider preaching, it's pretty subjective.
If he thinks that, then you should ask him. I just said I understood his point because I have felt this in the past with other shows. I've been on both sides of the discussion many times. After many times, you realize there's no point in fighting about it, people won't change their minds.
I just said my personal preference: when they act like it is totally normal and not a special event. That's the sweet spot for me. I'm guessing some may see that as homophobia, and others may see that as brainwashing. That's just the point I personally enjoy when it comes to these matters.
If you see his point you should be able to give one example of "preaching" other than the characters existence.
No, if I see his point doesn't mean I agree with his point. I see it. I've been on his side of this discussion before.
It is totally relative, why do you need to be so divisive? I was trying to be understanding with him, I wasn't joining a side. Just saw everyone attacking him and thought it was just a matter of personal preference not rooted in hate.
Do you think there is a series that is too woke or pushy? There's probably someone who disagrees with you if you do, probably a whole community.
Saying that no series is too woke is also an opinion that would get a lot of disagreement.
You see? These are opinions.
To see their point, you would have to think there is at least something to it.
Their, and your, inability to support that point makes it nonsensical to me.
Why do you see their point? What is at least one example of "woke(nees)" or "push(iness)" that makes your see their point? Or do you just agree with them on a visceral level that requires no explanations?
I already told you that seeing someone's point doesn't mean agreeing with their point. Do you disagree with this? If you do, I'm OK with it and we can move on.
To see their point you don't need to agree with it but you do need to think there is some basis for it.
What is the basis for their point that allows you to see it?
A big part of the community agrees with that opinion.
I've had that opinion when it comes to other series.
That's enough for me to see their point, even if I don't necessarily agree with it.
Why are you even arguing with me about semantics? You can go and ask him for specifics if that's what you care about.
A lot of people have a lot of stupid/bigoted opinions. Do you see all of their points too?
Your opinions of other shows are irrelevant to weather or not they have a valid point about this show.
That's enough? Someone says something, anything, and you see their point?
This is not semantic at all. I'm asking for one example from Star Trek that allows you to "see the point" of someone that says it's "woke," "pushy," "preachy," or anything else along those lines.
If you're unable to give an example you'll have to forgive people for assuming the reason is the mere existence of the characters that makes them feel that way and that allows you to "see their point."
As I said, I was being understanding with them because I didn't think their opinion was rooted in hate. I felt they really thought that the focus on the wokeness stole the spotlight from the plot.
And no, I wouldn't see their point because I haven't had bigoted or racist opinions before. I sent you a list with 2 points, why are you ignoring the second one?
OK, this is enough. I won't block you because that's immature, but please stop. Go ahead and downvote this, I don't care.
Not ascribing the worst motivations to something is quite different than "seeing their point."
I did address your second point. I said it was irrelevant.
I hope if someone starts saying something awful about you with no basis there aren't people who thoughtlessly "see their point" for no reason.
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Yup, exactly my point.