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Argentina's Milei tells school kids abortion is 'murder'
(www.france24.com)
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this post was submitted on 07 Mar 2024
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Unshockingly, yet another person claiming to be a libertarian is actually the exact opposite. Imagine if when people lied they got struck dead by lightning. Bam, every political problem the world has ever known is fixed almost overnight.
Libertarians are pretty split on abortion, it really depends on if they think the fetus has the right to protection.
No. Philosophically, abortion is a litmus test for libertarianism, where bodily autonomy reigns supreme. The idea that a government can force you to give birth is logically incoherent.
Again, even if you believed that a fetus is an actual person, that person cannot live in someone else’s body against their will. Libertarian philosophers would find that utterly preposterous.
When you look at it, the moral authority for most of the libertarians I know is ayn rand. If any of them shift to biblical scripture, they should realize the Bible beaters try to take all or nothing, and its all is incompatible with rand. I despise how she looked at the world in many ways, but she described preventing abortion as the most evil thing she could think of.
Any Rand is not considered a philosopher by most scholars. You might as well cite Donald Trump.
I understand that. All of the people I know in person who call themselves libertarians do not. I was explaining how they contradict themselves.
If a fetus is a person then consent happened at the time of sex. You cant invite a person for a 9 month journey, and then kill them. That is why its split.
So, let’s go over a hypothetical.
You’re in a situation where someone needs to be connected to you with tubes to live. You agree to this, and the tubes are connected. How long are you required to stay connected?
If you want to leave in a week, are you unable to? A month? Two? Nine? A year?
The moment you disconnect those tubes, the person dies. Are you now locked into being connected to this person forever?
Or do you have the right to walk away, because you’re also a human who is making a decision about your own body.
Now add some detriments to the situation. The longer you’re connected, the sicker you feel. The more nutrients they leech, the harder it gets for your body to move. Add in a death rate for fun.
You’re telling me that you are not permitted to make a choice about your body any longer, because at one time you consented to it? (Completely ignoring the fact that this may have been done without consent.)
"If a fetus is a person then consent happened at the time of sex." Your hypothetical is not relevant to the argument if the person doesnt give consent.
Rape doesn’t exist now?
And you’re completely ignoring my comment, to cherry pick the very last line.
Did you really want to go to the edge cases?
Firstly, edge cases are important. You made a generalized statement, and stated it as fact. You don’t see how that’s a problem?
Now are you going to respond to the actual comment, or skirt around the question because it doesn’t suit your narrative to engage such a situation?
Edge cases are fine, but they are almost always a distraction. And to answer your question, under rape, that is much more tricky and the libertarians that are pro-life will be split on that. So a yet even smaller portion of libertrians will be in favor of "forced birth" in the case of rape. I am not even giving my opinion on the matter, I am just telling you the two viewpoints.
Rape isn’t an edge case. 26,000 rape victims have been forced to give birth in Texas in just 2 years (Source).
[x] doubt
So whose body do you want to control based on your personal beliefs that aren’t very widely held and your gut feeling about situations that aren’t comfortable to you?
Liberty is an emotionally difficult stance. It’s bold and demands you permit that which you do not like. You seem to love the idea of holding that stance though you struggle with actually having it. You’re just a sparkling conservative
So when does the fetus get the rights to control their body?
When it can live outside of another person’s body. Just like how no matter how much I want a kidney that you promised me if you decide that you are no longer willing to undergo surgery to give it to me, even if I’m already knocked out to receive it, you can back out. You are the ultimate master of your body, but so is everyone else.
Okay, so then you believe that a person has rights when they can survive outside of the woman. So then the humanity of a fetus depends on location of the mother because in some countries the fetus can be born much earlier due to medical technology. That is not a logical stance.
I believe that the fetus’s right to live doesn’t supersede a person’s right to not be pregnant. That is a logical and consistent stance.
Thats not a logical stance if you dont have a logical point at which the fetus gets rights.
At no point is any person ever required to maintain using their body to keep someone else alive. If it’s your job and you don’t do it you may need professional consequences but never jail.
The fetus has rights but they all fall below that right of bodily autonomy.
That is what makes pregnancy a unique situation, another person is required to keep a fetus alive. If the fetus has the right of bodily autonomy, then the consensual act of making it was the consent to carry the fetus 9 months.
According to some libertarians, not all libertarians.
What an insane take.
Consenting to sex is NOT consenting to pregnancy
Consenting to pregnancy does NOT mean consent cannot be revoked
No person has the right to use another person's body without their consent
Anyone calling themselves a libertarian should have these 3 points tattooed on their forehead.
If the union of sperm and egg is a person, and if that person has the right to bodily autonomy, then yes having sex is consenting to making a person with the right to protection. and you cant kill them.
Putting aside that your first “if” statement is only believed by religious extremists, if sex is consenting to making a person, then does that mean that those who are raped are also “consenting”?
Rape is not consent to sex, and its a completely different discussion.
🤡