Yeah man idk about worse than nazis. It’s extremely hard to be worse than nazis. You need to go read up on the horrors the Nazis committed before saying anything is worse or as bad as Nazis.
Since we're talking about hot takes, here's mine. The Nazis are the most reviled because Hitler did the "unthinkable": he tried to colonize the colonizers by claiming to be whiter than the whites. So, the atrocities committed by nazis are somehow way more inexcusable than the ones committed by the British over "brown people". They ran concentration camps too, but since the victims were black, people doesn't seem too bothered by it.
And don't get me started about slavery, where people were grabbed and treated like animals, packed in ships as packages, and forced to work in their own concentration camps for the white guys.
What the Nazis did was horrible, but let's not pretend they're the only evil ones. Israel is just as bad, the difference being they're doing it over brown people which makes it somehow more acceptable on the eyes of the world.
Im not going to defend the british empire. But these atrocities are off by a significant factor compared to the holocaust.
There were over 40,000 jewish ghettos and concentration camps.
In the ghettos, jews (and romani, and others) were rationed on 250cal per day, lived 7 to a room. Warsaw ghetto had a peek population of 460,000. At least 300,000 were shot, and a further 92,000 died of starvation and disease. Despite thousands (if not 10s of thousands) of people being forced into the ghetto, the population never increased.
Auschwitz had the highest survival rate of the concentration camps, where 1.1 million died of the 1.3 million that went "through" that camp.
Yes, the british empire has done horrendous things. But nowhere on the scale and ferocity of the holocaust.
I think the early 1900s were very dark, and a lot of people did horrendous things. Actually, probably doing a lot of horrendous things in the 1800s as well.
Id like to think humanity has learned since then
There is also another aspect:
While many European empires colonized and oppressed the local populations brutally, eradication was never the point. The point was always extraction of wealth.
With the Nazis there was not even a pretense of working towards any goal other than complete annihilation. The Nazis engineered death according to modern, industrial principles. They did not just dehumanize their victims by declaring their lives worthless. They calculated a value of exactly what it was worth to extinguish a jewish/handicapped/lgbtq/communist/sinti/roma/non-white life and then went about spending that money as efficiently as possible.
In other genocides you will see wanton bombings, mobs raging through the streets, sieges denying food and resources to areas. But you will not see reports from bureaucrats complaining that shipping of this load of victims to that camp was inefficient and they should have been sent to a different camp to save costs instead.
Israel is not the Nazis. Still bad though.
Oh wait till you read the reports of how efficient the ovens can be made
Israel is restrained by modern morality. We didn't see Hitler coming, and we didn't care back then. We do care now. If Israel went ahead with cattle cars and gas chambers and ovens they'd get curb stomped by the world. Israel has to tread carefully, portraying this as a war on terror instead of what it really is: mass extermination. Plus they literally cannot just mow down the whole populace, again because the world hasn't forgotten Hitler and would shut them down. They have to boil the pot more slowly... because scrutiny has increased as have standards of human rights.
Without all those restraints.......
Yeh, absolutely.
But it isnt fair to say they are worse than nazis.
Modern nazis? Maybe.
Id also say that the optics are that they arent attacking because of things people cant change.
They specifically targetting hamas's members children, they arent specifically targetting people that used to be hamas. Theoretically if hamas disbanded, the war would stop.
At least, thats the way the optics seem.
Whether that is what is actually happening (or would happen) is a different matter.
Are they going about it the correct way? Doesnt seem like it.
The nazis persecuted jewish people, their children, anybody associating with them and so on.
There were nazi supporters in many countries before WW2, who also blamed the jewish for many issues.
Theoretically. Targeting anyone's children is far out of bounds, and at 30,000 dead including people stampeding for food, it's not just Hamas or Hamas kids they're going after. Nor is it only Hamas that they're starving to death en masse. It is, however, the bullshit they're spoon feeding an uncritical world.
Plus they literally cannot just mow down the whole populace
They have proof of concept from that massacre yesterday.
Funny how you treat the Holocaust like a numbers game. So in your mind it cat be a Holocaust until huge numbers of ppl die?
Palestine looks a lot like the beginning of a Holocaust...
That all was done on a short term time frame. But how does the israel crimes of 70 years compare?
Thats a new take i never thought of. Interesting.
Most Israelis are now 'brown' people of Arab or North African descent. They're also the group that is most likely to support (far-) right parties.
I'd like some source on that because the rise of the far right on the EU and USA says otherwise.
No problem.
On most Israelis being of Middle-Eastern or North African descent:
Mizrahi Jews constitute one of the largest Jewish ethnic divisions among Israeli Jews. Mizrahi Jews are descended from Jews in the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia and parts of the Caucasus, who had lived for many generations under Muslim rule during the Middle Ages. The vast majority of them left the Muslim-majority countries during the Arab–Israeli conflict, in what is known as the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries. ... As of 2005, 61% of Israeli Jews were of full or partial Mizrahi ancestry
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews_in_Israel
Bit of a tangent, but this is partly why Israel's security services are/were so feared in the middle-east. They simply employed 'Arab'/Mizrahi Jews, who were indistinguishable from other Arabs and often knew the culture.
On Mizrahi Jews being more likely to support (far-) right parties:
Why the right-wing Mizrahi vote is misunderstood in Israel ... Israeli Jews from the Middle East and North Africa vote en masse for Likud and its right-wing allies, despite being told it's against their interests.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-why-right-wing-mizrahi-vote-misunderstood
‘In Some Respects, Mizrahi Identity in Israel Is Dominant ... Most of the cabinet ministers are Mizrahim, most of the mayors are Mizrahim, ...
If you want you can look up (recent) Israeli cabinet ministers on wikipedia, you'll often find they have Middle-Eastern or North African ancestry. Often these are some of the most right-wing politicians. For example:
May Golan ... is an Israeli politician and activist ... In 2023, a group of former Israeli ambassadors said they were “shocked” by the appointment of Golan as Israel's new women's advancement minister, saying that “Golan’s appointment is outrageous as she is a racist and divisive figure .... She is the child of a single Orthodox Jewish mother ... from Iraq ... Golan was known for a number of inflammatory statements she made about African asylum seekers in Israel, referring to them as rapists and infiltrators who would spread HIV among the Israeli population. Golan says “If I am racist for wanting to defend my country and for wanting to protect my basic rights and security, then I’m a proud racist”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Golan
Itamar Ben-Gvir ... is an Israeli lawyer and far-right extremist... who has served as the Minister of National Security since 2022 ... His father was born in Jerusalem to Iraqi Jewish immigrants. He worked at a gasoline company and dabbled in writing. His mother was a Kurdish Jewish immigrant ... has faced charges of hate speech against Arabs and was known to have a portrait in his living room of Israeli-American mass murderer and Jewish extremist Baruch Goldstein, who massacred 29 Palestinian Muslim worshipers and wounded 125 others in Hebron ... Ben-Gvir took part in the clashes between Israeli Jewish settlers and the local Palestinian residents, brandishing a gun, telling the police to shoot at Palestinians throwing stones at the scene, and yelling at them that "We're the landlords here, remember that, I am your landlord." This was a message that was later repeated by him in a tweet on the morning after the 2022 election in his victory tweet.
Wow, TIL. Thank you very much for the sources.
If they were even close, there would have been nothing left of Gaza after the first three days. Everyone that managed to survive somehow would be in concentration camps already. So yeah, not even close. Still bad tho...
Just because israel is going about their genocide differently doesnt make it less evil. They have the support of many countries that felt bad for what hitler did to them. So of course they are keeping a line of not going to far in order to stay looking like a good guy.
So by your logic this is equal in evilness
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Massacres_committed_by_Nazi_Germany https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation
17 million is a larger number than 30,000.
That doesn't make what the Israelis are doing excusable or any less of a crime. It does mean what they're doing isn't on the same scale as the Nazis.
There have been larger genocides. Nazis are only at the forefront because they were the only ones to industrialize genocide. The intent and rhetoric of Israel is directly comparable though.
Since the six days war? Nah
The Nazis killed more people out of more people over a larger period of time. In Gaza at least 30000 people have been killed, and that at least is doing a lot of heavy lifting, in less than five months. There are also at least 60000 wounded, again at least. Now remember that all of Gaza has 2.5 million people. Leave Israel for four years and in relative terms they'll be about as bad as what the Nazis did.
30,000/2.4 million (population of Gaza) = 1.25%
6 million Jews / 9.5 million pre-war European Jewish population = 63%
In Gaza at least 30000 people have been killed, and that at least is doing a lot of heavy lifting, in less than five months.
Operation Rheinhard:
Using an unusual dataset originating from railway transportation records, this study identifies an extreme phase of hyperintense killing when >1.47 million Jews—more than 25% of the Jews killed in all 6 years of World War II—were murdered by the Nazis in an intense,100-day (~3-month) surge.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292
1.25/9.5 = 13.6% of the Jewish population in Europe in 100 days.
I get people are angry and why people make the comparison, but it's quite easy to debunk that it was on a similar scale to what the Nazis did. The numbers don't lie.
Nazi/Holocaust comparisons undermine any criticism you make of Israel, because what they did is so clearly on a different scale. If you want to win the argument, it's better to avoid these hyperbolic comparisons.
Okay good point. I guess I underestimated the Nazis.
Leopold II, Stalin, U.S. Indian Removal Act, Genghis Khan. It's doable, sadly, but with Israel the issue is scale, not intent or magnitude of the hate involved.
The nazis had about a decade to commit evil, but israel has been at it for 70+ years. We dont even know all the horrible things that have been done. So no ill stick with worse then nazis. This is unpopular opinions after all.
Yea and I respect the community, not downvoting you for doing exactly what this community is for lol
He's downvoted by people who can't accept the truth. This happens all the time to me especially if I mention the word Zionist/Zionism.
Nah. Hes being downvoted because the Israeli government isn't doing anything as evil as the holocaust. And he keeps insulting the people that disagree. Its not on the same level, even slightly, but it's still fucking evil. By all means, hate Israel for this. I have since I was a kid and the IDF killed my babysitter in cold blood. They're not nazis, but theyre evil genocidal monsters who should be reviled nontheless.
Besides gaz chambers, i would say they are similar. Both used famine as a strategy and instead of mass shooting Israel is doing mass bombardment
I think most people who call them Nazis are doing so because of the mindset. Israel is forced to exercise a modicum of restraint while Nazis had none at all, but their actions and rhetoric are extremely similar. Not saying no one thinks the IDF is doing things on a similar scale to the Holocaust (I did until like five minutes ago), but that's not really the reason for the comparison. "If it looks like a Nazi, walks like a Nazi and quacks like a Nazi, it's a Nazi" is a pretty logically sound line of thinking.
To repeat myself just in case, the Nazis' industrialization of death was on a level on its own that hopefully won't be repeated again, but the Lebensraum aspect of Nazi ideology is replicated almost exactly as a core tenet of Zionist thinking. This is why they're called Nazis.
I had actually been trying to think of a truely unpopular opinion, and it finally hit me to post this. Its a shame i dont know how to fully explain my deep hatred but the general idea is all thats needed for an unpopular opinion lol.
I get that and I think it's in the spirit of unpopular opinions. It's actually interesting how divisive this topic is. I think in my circles I have an equally unpopular opinion of the exact opposite stance which is that war happens and atrocities come out of it and picking sides in the middle east is a fools errand. I think israel was dealt a shit hand where their existence comes at the displacement of Palestinians, they have holocaust trauma and then their neighbors want them dead, and then they are given superior fire power. How is that recipe going to play out? But I know emotions are high and there has to be a "right" side and a good guy and a bad guy.
They've become monstrous, but don't forget who fed the beast and always looked the other way when it bit a neighbour. So much American money has been given to them over the decades that AIPAC spends a lot of money making sure it doesn't stop. Meanwhile Netanyahu has indirectly enabled and supported Hamas so his casus belli stays in play perpetually
I agree, he litteraly helped hamas to the point where an attack of this size could be half justified. Bibi wanted the attack to happen, and he plans on wiping out as many people as he can before its not politicaly beneficial. Then they will just get another to do the same in a few years untill israel controls everything.
I hate knowing my country is funding them. And I hate even more that if I dont want democracy to finish crumbling under trumps baby sized thumbs Biden is the only current option.
Most popular opinion on lemmy ...
Israel bad is the most popular, as bad as nazis..... yeah i think ill get a lot of people disagreeing.
Yeah, but there isn't any nuance on lemmy, so in this context bad and "as bad as nazis" literally mean the same.
Worse than Nazis? Thats a pretty ignorant thing to say
Zionism and nazism are two sides of the same coin.
They had to learn it from somewhere.
Zionists and Nazis both are fascists so it makes sense you feel that way.
One day you'll realize you're somehow wrong because this opinion will instead become popular opinion.
Where on earth is this an unpopular opinion? Israel is the essence of evil
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