I think that is a fair system! I still want the option to throw a downvote if something really needs it - but it keeps brigading or shit from happening.
this post was submitted on 13 Jun 2023
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go for it
i think thats a v good idea c: i am like very new here but i think that'd effectively help limit/prevent people mass downvoting something, i think it'd provide a space for healthy disagreements
After seeing some contentious threads on here recently, it's actually much nicer to read without seeing all the posts spammed with downvotes. Makes it feel a lot more friendly.
My preference is to keep downvotes disabled.
I love that we have the fidelity here to implement things like "downvotes are at 0.2x power" and stuff like that! That sounds cool, should totally try that out and see how it ends up feeling. I think people would ultimately be OK with a near-zero-power downvote, if that ends up negatively affecting conversations too much.
I wouldn't mind trying it but I also always disliked downvoting systems in favour of hiding or reporting/blocking (if it was incredibly out of line). I always thought that down voting was presumptive.
Just because I don't like something doesn't mean it should affect anyone else.
(Edited to say I'm not against it; if it were enabled, I'd be fine with it too. I do like the ability to weight them differently too, so that helps)
I came into this thread thinking that I want downvotes enabled, and now after reading some pretty compelling arguments I can see how disabled makes a lot of sense too. Hopefully this partial weight approach is a good balance between the two. Can always continue to iterate
Sounds like a really good compromise. "Rediquette" says it's only to discourage spam and posts that add nothing to the conversation, but in practice, basically everyone uses it as an "I disagree" button. Gets used as a tool to discourage dissent and silence the actual unpopular opinions.
This is the big thing I hate about downvotes on Reddit. Instead of downvotes, people who disagree should make a comment about it, and then THAT comment can get upvoted to show that people disagree with the original comment. It encourages conversation and discourages echo-chambers where people are punished for having a different opinion.
Exactly
Would it be possible to enable this at the topic level but not the comment level? My thinking is that it makes sense for helping users decide what posts to read in the first place, but would still discourage low-effort negativity that doesn’t actually contribute to a discussion.
But even if the answer to that is “no”… I don’t strongly object to trying this out and seeing how it works for this community. 🙂 If de-weighted downvotes still lead to problems, the change could always be reverted. Thank you for exploring the options!
Would it be possible to enable this at the topic level but not the comment level?
That's actually a really good idea, and it addresses most of my concerns with the downvote system. However, I have no idea what is involved in making that happen in the backend, and don't want to throw even more work at @supakaity :)
So, looking at the Lemmy code it seems pretty straightforward (like, really straightforward. There's two checks, one for comments and one for posts, so just make them use different functions). I can try doing it, maybe even propose it as a PR upstream. Might take me a day or two for a PR though.
If it’s straightforward, I’d Very much support this!
If you don't end up making the PR I'm down to go check it out. If you do make the PR, link it so I can go give my support for it lol.
https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/pull/3063 it got denied, and it's incomplete, but if you want to base yourself off of this I'm all for it.
Ah that's a shame, although I understand where they're coming from being wary of complicating settings for the front-end. Either way I'll look into it a bit when I can get to my PC and see if there's still any hope for it lol.
Regardless of what happens with it, I appreciate you making the PR!
Totally fine with this, but I’m curious how weights/disabling downvotes works? Like does the 5:1 downvotes weight apply to downvotes everywhere, even on other instances that have normal weights? Or is it just for communities that are hosted on blahaj.zone?
This would be a global change to the way our instance displays downvotes. Anywhere downvotes would apply, they would still apply, but with 5 times less weight.
@ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone it's global and it would display on our instance like:
Score: 4.2. Upvotes: 5. Downvotes: 4
Other instances' "hot ranking" is unaffected by our change and they are free to rank and score up and down votes however they please.
Would this mean we see the actual number of upvotes & downvotes just with downvotes counting for less in the rankings? Or would that "downvote" displayed also be 1/5th of the real number?
Ohh okay, gotcha. Thanks for the explanation!
I personally think downvotes are unnecessary, because if there's any constructive disagreements to be discussed, it's better to get people talking rather than downvoting. Not upvoting is basically the new downvote, which would make sense if someone is flaming or trying to sow discord, they are basically ignored. Negative attention is still attention, and those types don't deserve any.
Edit: To clarify, I think downvotes aren't a good idea for blahaj but, as others ITT said, will put us at a disadvantage if other instances have downvotes enabled.
I concur, I actually really like not having downvotes at all.
Plenty of accounts on reddit just existed to see how much they could get downvoted by picking fights and spreading hate for fun, I don’t want to see any of that here
I think this is a really good idea. That said I think it's important to revisit this at some point and determine how it alters the vibe relative to other instances. A post with equal upvotes/downvotes would be hid in one system and platformed in another. Unfortunately there are lots of awful takes (read transphobia) that could easily reach a 50/50 split. In particular, I think this may become an issue when we inevitably see a conservative corner of lemmy rise up.
Transphobia won't reach anyone. I have zero tolerance for it, even the "just asking questions" sort. I will remove anything even hinting at transphobia, and ban/suspend anyone whose intentions I doubt.
based as fuck moderator
this is the best way ❤️
Having been here for a couple of days I now feel that downvotes are a bad idea. They don't add anything of value to the discussion that cannot be expressed by simply not upvoting. If they must be re-enabled (which I disagree with) I think they should be at least an order of magnitude different, 20:1 or even 50:1, just to make brigading harder. I don't miss them from Reddit, and if they're enabled at 5:1, I'd consider finding another instance where they're just disabled - but hey, I'm new, so I might be missing something.
I prefer not having them.
Weighted downvotes are a good idea. No objections from me
I like having downvotes personally, in whatever form.
This sounds way better than disabling downvotes completely. This would probably be a fair compromise between downvotes killing posts too easily and allowing bad/low-quality posts to rise.
i like it! downvotes are too strong for how they're often used, and this seems like a great compromise.
Is it possible to have no downvotes on Blahaj, but do have downvotes on federated communities?
This would give Blahaj users the same perception of federated communities as other instances have and give us a safe space in Blahaj. It also means we can sort federated communities like normal and see what everyone else sees, while still having downvotes nonexistent in Blahaj communities.
I've never really wanted downvotes in Blahaj, but I've worried about not having them for other instances. It feels like I'm not on a "level playing field" when I can be downvoted by others on a federated communities, but can't downvote anything myself. I'm also worried that with downvotes = 1/5, it would result in a skewed perspective of federated communities if Blahaj sorts federated communities that way too.
I don't know what the code looks like (yet?) but I feel like denying downvotes only on local communities wouldn't be a hard change to make.
Edit: I also wouldn't mind if downvotes were 1/5 on Blahaj but 1=1 on federated communities, but I can see that being a harder change to make.
Edit 2: if this is a straightforward change I wouldn't mind implementing it when I have time. I have some familiarity with Rust, TS, and JS so it wouldn't be difficult to jump into.
i like this idea!! it seems like a good way to counteract downvote spams while still having a way to express dislike
i dont really get why they were disabled to begin with
Because they are often weaponised against marginalised folk.
Downvotes are a useful tool for sorting content and unless they are being abused should be implemented with a 1:1 weight with downvotes.
That will not be happening.
Does this apply to all votes:
- by local users on local posts
- by local users on global posts
- by global users on local posts
I'm curious how it works when factoring in other instances' interconnectivity.
Also are other instance users currently able to downvote posts on this instance?
Out of the box, lemmy treats all votes as equal whether they're from the local instance or whether they've federated, and all the votes do is change the order of the posts in views that use scores as part of the calculations. (hot, active and top)
This change is simply a change in the weight of downvotes so they have less impact to the score of a post. It won't otherwise change their behaviour.
Also are other instance users currently able to downvote posts on this instance?
Depends what you mean. At the moment, our instance ignores downvotes that federate to us and we ignore downvotes when calculating the score of external posts that do use them. Which is to say, anything you view through this instance is in effect, viewed as if downvotes didn't exist.
However, instances that don't ignore downvotes calculate them in to the post score, which means they will sort posts in a different order.
So if you make a post to an external community that allows downvotes and then get downvoted, people on instances with downvotes will see them, but we won't
You can see more about the ranking formula at https://join-lemmy.org/docs/en/contributors/07-ranking-algo.html
So if you make a post to an external community that allows downvotes and then get downvoted, people on instances with downvotes will see them, but we won’t
It would be nice to see the number of downvotes & upvotes on external communities just for the purpose of knowing what other people are seeing, but still have posts sorted with disregard for the downvotes.
Although I'd imagine that's a bit complicated (if even possible at all)
How does this work with communities on other instances? Currently we can't downvotes those, but would this allow us to?
Anyway, I say either go all in or don't allow them at all.
Normally, downvotes federate in and out, just like upvotes. Because we've disabled them, our instance doesn't send out downvotes out, and ignores any that come in to us.
Anyway, I say either go all in or don’t allow them at all.
I don't think I'll ever be comfortable with allowing standard downvotes without modification. When given equal weight, they further marginalise the already marginalised.
i am largerthanabreadbox
Thanks for sharing!
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