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DISCUSSION: Episode 19 (sopuli.xyz)
submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz to c/dungeonmeshi@ani.social
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Last weeks thread - 17 Comments

Dungeon Meshi is a well liked manga, and an adaptation by Studio Trigger is now airing. If you haven’t picked this one up, consider joining us. Both for fun and as a way of contributing to activity on Lemmy.

Episodes are available to stream on Netflix.

Laios and the gang finally gain a new party member! It's not Falin, and she's a bit of a pain, but how can they say no to adopting a catgirl in need?

The adventure continues as our heroes delve deeper into the dungeon.

Remember not to spoil anything if you’re a manga reader, but feel free to elaborate on tidbits of lore that may not be coming through in the adaptation.

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[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 14 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

This episode adapts two of the most pivotal chapters in the manga. The proper introduction of our fifth member of the main cast, Izutsumi. And the first deep-dive into one of them, Marcille.

I could gush endlessly about Izutsumi. I am so happy to finally have her around. Seeing Marcille animated so beautifully has had me waiting on the edge of my seat to finally see this gremlin of a catgirl in motion.

She's standoffish, assumes the worst of others, selfish, and quick to violence.

She's a cat!

So often anime nekomimis are depicted as cuddly fluffballs of adorable softness. And while cats like that exist, you don't see many nekomimis in anime that act like the more aloof and wild cats that are out there. The ones you have to build trust with for years before they'll get in your lap, or purr at your touch.

The second chapter adapted this episode is the nightmare encounter.

When I read the manga, up to this point, I had merely liked it. I thought it was funny, and at times pretty cool. But this chapter is when I realized this story might turn out to be my all time favorite manga. And eventually it did.

We dive into the very core of who Marcille is. A frightened child, terrified of everyone she'll ever care about, aging to death before she really even comes to feel like an adult. And having those fears re-inforced by the fact that at merely the starting steps of her lifespan, she has already lost one the most important people a person can have.

I really, really loved the nightmare sequence. The paintings were not a thing in the manga, BUT HOLY FUCK ARE THEY A BIG HINT. Marcy obviously hasn't had a normal elven upbringing. She didn't attend an elven school of magic, or at least didn't stay in one if she did. Instead she wound up hanging out as the sole elf in a human/gnomish school. What's up with that? How and when did she even get into dark magic, and why? She's claimed her interest is to help society, but she's an outcast that's barely part of it herself. What is her personal reason for pursuing the forbidden arts and researching dungeons in general? What spell is she referring to when she shouts at Laios that her magic is not yet complete?

There are a couple of different paintings, but they tell a pretty explicit story.

Marcilles dad was human, and he aged to death before she even began puberty. She's not a bure-blood elf. She is half-human.

Spoiler for a small detail about half-elves in the Dungeon Meshi worldWorse. Half-elves do not have lifespans that are half that of full elves. They live longer. Much longer. Longer than any race. She is doomed to outlive almost everyone she will ever love.

Also. Remember how Marcy said her research involved another dimension where infinity exists? What symbol is the eye on the mad sorcerers book? The way it was the sole colored object in the dream for a moment was an amazing addition that wasn't possible in the manga.

Much like the master noticed Laios in the paintings....

The book, has noticed Marcille.

And did you think I was kidding back when I said the Laios x Falin fuel started dropping? Have some more!

[-] MysticKetchup@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Man, I didn't even notice those paintings on first watch. But boy are they some great insights into the core of Marcille's character.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

They hit so much harder than just "yeah she's a half elf and her dad's dead" like in the manga where the paintings aren't there in the background. Only that first portrait of Marcilles mother can be seen.

But here in the adaptation, this sequence of her aging dad, ending with her crying her heart out with mom at a grave is something else.

[-] wjs018@ani.social 10 points 5 months ago

I am already a big fan of Izutsumi. She was incredibly wary of our party to begin with, but after protecting her from her curse that is activated, she is much more open to tagging along with everybody else.

Speaking of her curse...that's pretty messed up right? She has to have the spellcaster touch her inscription every so often or else it will try to kill her? Basically a curse to try to prevent her from ever escaping. Oh, and that spellcaster? She chuffed off a while back leaving Izutsumi to her fate with nary an ounce of hesitation. All that without even mentioning how they chimera'd her into a cat person. Note to self, never end up a "retainer" of Shuro.

As for the nightmare sequence, we got more Laios/dog imagery. The difference between how Laios saw himself as a wolf compared to how Marcille saw him as a derpy puppy was pretty funny. Something that wasn't clear to me was the book that Marcille has in her dream. Is that the spellbook that she has? the book that the mad mage has? are they the same book as each other? It wasn't quite clear to me. The way that color flooded into the dream was pretty dope. Also, just like Laios, I was in disbelief when the spellbook was used, not to cast magic, but to bonk the monster away.

Five more episodes to go. That's enough time to build up to another climax before season's end, but I feel like we already had some pretty big climaxes recently, so there might not be something big to end the season on. Alternatively, it could be enough time for something big to happen outside the dungeon, like with the lord of the island, the elves, or best boy Kabru.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

Yes. The Nakamotos are very, very fucked up.

Izutsumi was given to Maizuru as a pet by Shuro's father, though in practice she was just another slave purchased to become a retainer. And Shuro's dad's actions are questionable af as he was love-bombing Maizuru by giving her a literal person as a gift.

Unlike with most retainers, Izutsumi was never happy to be owned just because the Nakamotos housed and fed her. Likely because typically retainers start off very young so they can be indoctrinated into endless gratitude towards the family, ready to die for a Nakamoto at the drop of a hat.

But Izu was purchased when much older, as a drunken impulse buy to "get Maizuru a kitten".

I'll post Maizuru's world guide chapter next, as it touches on these things.

That was the dungeon masters book, yes.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 9 points 5 months ago

In previous episodes it seemed like Shuro's servants were happy and willing but this episode shows that maybe that's not the case. Izutsumi seems to have been forced into servitude, her body modified and weaponized against her will. Certainly doesn't help improve my opinion of Shuro to realize he's a slave owner.

As I expected Senshi's cooking comes to rescue and helps mellow out our new cat friend (　＾▽＾)

The dream rescue was pretty cool, Marcille remembering Laios as a friendly fluffy dog is so cute lol.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 9 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I touched on this in previous discussion threads. The retainers are property.

When they "join" the family as retainers, they don't even get to keep their original names. They insisted on renaming Izutsumi to Asebi.

Their existence is so normalized, Shuro doesn't give them a second thought. The only one among them he considered a person is Maizuru, as she was his tutor growing up. They formed a bond (this is why Maizuru is so "motherly" towards him), but he grew distant again after learning that his dad was fucking her. The consensuality of which is extremely questionable considering "no" is not an option for a slave.

Shuro has had quite a challenge growing into someone half-decent in an environment where completely fucked up things are normal.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 6 points 5 months ago

Do they ever explore that in the future or is it just for flavor? Always puts me off a little when shows introduce such heavy subjects and then don't really touch on them.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It's a big part of who Izu is, and as such will be a focus of her character exploration and development.

But Shuro or the other retainers are side characters, they're just around. Exploring them fully would mean going off on a major tangent to the main plot, so it doesn't really happen.

The Nakamoto family is elaborated on a bit in the world guide. They are themselves a servant family to the eastern emperor, but one in a powerful position. They employ retainer-ninjas to perform clandestine operations in the name of the empire. They are essentially the eastern Black Ops.

Shuro has been sent off along with an escort of retainers, to explore the world as a coming of age.

The current head of the family, Shuro's father, seems to be a drunkard creep that does things on a whim. The only reason Shuro seems so level headed is that he was effectively raised by Maizuru, rather than his biological parents.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago

I see, sounds good. Hope our main party have some opinions on it, Laios believed Shuro to be his bff so I wonder how he'd feel about him after learning more about Izutsumi. Regardless, I hope the show is not neutral about it like so many animes these days are. Thanks for all the lore, helps expand my understanding of the story and characters.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

It's hard to hold Shuro responsible. I think he used to be a lot more down to earth.

Reading his character sheet, it says he didn't really find anyone to look up to as a role model, and instead got attached to his tutor Maizuru, a person that is technically "below" him. Hiens chapter also describes that her past relationship with Shuro was much more like that of actual friends rather than master and servant.

He doesn't really own the retainers, yet. He is the son of the man who does. He's no longer a child, but still very much under the thumb of his father. While he might be able to have them die for him in some dungeon, setting them free "because that's the right thing to do" would likely have dad disowning him the moment he finds out.

I think Maizurus relationship with the family head hurt Shuro, being a reminder that someone he loves and respects as a person, can be, and is treated, like property. As a coping mechanism he's stopped thinking of her as a person, aligning himself with a status quo he can't change. I don't think that can last. He's clearly miserable either way, and though Izu is left for dead, he actually gives the other retainers an apology for putting them in danger.

I'm very curious about what Maizurus inner thoughts might be on all of it. Because she seems to have a much, much clearer idea of what Shuros future will look like.

Her play seems to be backing a future head of the family in hopes he'll be a better master.

The way Maizuru talks about Shuro, shows she has no qualms being parental to the point of manipulative in molding him into a "proper" person. By doing so she is in a way exercising power and influence through Shuro, the future head of the Nakamotos. She speaks of the current head in an almost traitorous manner in the world guide. That makes me think that though she is genuinely fond of Shuro, she has plans of her own to realize when it comes to how the Nakamoto family should be run.

Then again, Maizuru doesn't seem to have a problem with the whole retainer practice, seeing as she was responsible for maintaining the spell on Izu. Like Shuro, she is terminally upper-class, and is just so used to the status quo that it simply seems "proper" for things to work the way they do. But I think that by becoming so important in Shuro's life, she's unwittingly set Shuro up to one day realize that owning people isn't cool.

What's he gonna do when he "inherits" ownership of Maizuru? I don't think really "owning" his first-love-kind-of-mother-figure is gonna sit right with him.

If he "keeps" her, he'd just be like his father. I do not think Shuro likes his father, or the idea of being like him.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

Maizuru kinda sounds like Vivienne from dragon age... I hate that character lol. I don't know if I agree with Kubro not being responsible, he did leave Izutsumi behind knowing full well what'll happen to her. He's not a sheltered child anymore, he's an experienced adventurer, he's seen what the world is like and has enough experience to be able to understand that his slaves are people, not property. A friendly slaver is still a slaver after all.

Anyways, from what I gather the story won't focus on Shuro or his family much so not much point speculating what he feels or thinks about this subject, or what he might do in the future.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

I don't like him, either. I'm lukewarm. I'm trying to explain why he makes sense, is so interesting, and is still potentially redeemable.

I used the phrase "terminally upper-class" to describe him. As in someone shaped by his surroundings to the extent that only serious interaction with new things will change him.

He's 26, only recently kicked out into the world on his father's whim. He's trained. Not experienced. His recent joining Laios' party is literally the first adventuring he's ever done.

He's a rich kid out on his first outing into the real world.

He already knows that the retainers are people. He grew up playing with them, literally raised by one of them. He started off knowing they were people.

I think he is in a depression and choosing to ignore that fact because it is easier than dealing with the feelings caused by caring about these people, while being powerless to help them. Something he hadn't yet been forced to acknowledge until learning that the most formative person in his life, is also his dad's favourite plaything. He knows they are people, and is trying reconcile that with the cards that real life has dealt them. And yes, he is failing. Hard.

Of course, he isn't really powerless, but going from feeling that way to knowing otherwise, and then acting on it, can take years, no matter how old you are. And I think Maizuru is banking on it happening. Though she herself probably doesn't realize how far Shuro will want to change things when he finally processes it all.

Still wouldn't let him have Falin in a million years. She could do so much better.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

I see, I assumed he was experienced based on what's presented in the show so far, thanks for additional info.

I understand how he is the way he is and why that's interesting but yeah, still don't like him, maybe my opinion will change in the future.

And yeah, totally agree, Falin is too nice to be with him.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 2 points 5 months ago

I can totally see how one could get that idea. He's clearly competent, and extremely skilled with a blade.

But taking a second look, you see the signs. Apparently the man has never had to get real with a friend to get something properly communicated, nor experienced what happens if you don't eat and sleep.

He has skill, but on the kinds of things you get from experience, he's a complete beginner. It's pretty clear Maizuru has been begging him to eat at every opportunity, and unlike when Shuro was a subordinate of Laios, she would have been powerless to stop him making leadership mistake after mistake.

[-] kaboom36@ani.social 3 points 5 months ago

I wonder if he left her behind because he figured she would follow the group and be freed by Marcielle, then he could just claim she probably died in the dungeon while she's living free

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 3 points 5 months ago

I don't know, if that were the case it would've been shown I think, considering the curse placed on her Shuro would've said something about that if he was concerned. Marcille explains that separating souls is kinda impossible even for a mage of her caliber, I don't think Shuro would've assumed that she could do it.

[-] MentalEdge@ani.social 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

@kaboom36@ani.social

I'll just quickly confirm two things explained in the world guide.

The spell Maizuru used to keep track of Izu may not actually be lethal. She used to use the exact same spell to keep Shuro from running off as a child, so it might be that all it does is scare the subject.

Second, Izu wants her curse broken, but it wasn't placed on her by the Nakamotos. She was already a beast-man when they bought her from a freak show.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

The spell Maizuru used to keep track of Izu may not actually be lethal. She used to use the exact same spell to keep Shuro from running off as a child, so it might be that all it does is scare the subject.

It definitely seemed lethal with the way it was using that knife, probably a modified version of the same spell that she used for Shuro, I think.

Izu wants her curse broken, but it wasn't placed on her by the Nakamotos.

I see, probably from some dealer who sells "exotic" slaves, yuck (._.)

[-] MentalEdge@ani.social 1 points 5 months ago

Not sure. The world guide explicitly mentions it's a spell that causes a monster to chase you, with a knife. The intended effect is obviously to cause fear of death, but it's unclear whether it will actually proceed to kill the subject given the chance.

[-] arya48@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

Yeah that definitely sounds like it's not lethal. Guess izutsumi didn't know.

[-] Bananigans@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 points 5 months ago

Surprised nobody's talking about all that fanservice Senshi hit us with.

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 months ago

This episode had a lot.

I also really wanted to bring up Laios' dream monster. What a hypocrite, criticizing Falin for combining too many things, and then he thinks up that thing?!

[-] MysticKetchup@lemmy.world 4 points 5 months ago

Best catgirl has arrived. Though I'm sad we won't get to a lot of her best scenes until season 2

[-] MentalEdge@sopuli.xyz 4 points 5 months ago

SpoilerWe should at least get to see her turn all cuddly within the monster-pacifying effects of the immortality field. And her subsequent realization afterwards :D

[-] rikka@ani.social 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Dungeon Meshi - episode 19

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