this post was submitted on 13 Apr 2025
235 points (96.8% liked)
A Comm for Historymemes
2342 readers
509 users here now
A place to share history memes!
Rules:
-
No sexism, racism, homophobia, transphobia, assorted bigotry, etc.
-
No fascism, atrocity denial, etc.
-
Tag NSFW pics as NSFW.
-
Follow all Lemmy.world rules.
Banner courtesy of @setsneedtofeed@lemmy.world
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Holy shit, TIL. I always kinda of suspected that the North American indigenous population was completely decimated by epidemics, such that what we know of them today is wildly different from what they were in the pre-contact era. De Soto describes agrarian societies in Florida, for example (IIRC). There's also evidence for agrarian societies that collapsed along the Mississippi River valley. Totally wild.
One huge problem is how negligent the US has been preserving indigenous history - often in ways that seem deliberate. We’ve turned these sites into golf courses.
Big problem in the 1800s and early 1900s archeology of indigenous sites being basically grave robbing for the artifact trade. What happened to the Spiro mounds raises my blood pressure (the photos of the hack job are burned into my mind - just hire random day laborers with shovels I guess), especially because to this day the fake Heavener “Viking runestone” gets more attention.
We know so fucking little about indigenous history, because of systemic ignorance, laziness, and racism on the part of many historians and archeologists. Just imagine the languages that went extinct without being documented, or what actual religious practices would have looked like (so much “Great Spirit” talk just seems indelibly colored by Christianity…)
Imagine being an 1800s “philologist” and sleeping on this.
Just in California's central valley region, we lost hundreds of languages. Again, post-contact, so we're functionally dealing with a post-apocalypse civilization, but oftentimes tribes were fairly small here and controlled fairly small geographic territories. The Spanish document that travelling, even with guides, was frustrating because their guides would go through four or five languages in an excursion, and would often end up in areas where they didn't know the language.
Yeah, 100%, the amount of knowledge that was lost or just outright destroyed is awful. Most of what we know, we know because the Spanish wrote it down, and IIRC it's known that missionaries would often distort what they heard to fit a Christian narrative in order to make later conversion easier.
distort what they heard to fit a Christian narrative in order to make later conversion easier.
And if they couldn’t make it fit the narrative:
Genocide isn’t just about the physical violence. The Maya were one of a handful of societies to independently invent writing. Imagine what we lost.
Buddha ease my suffering, this hurts worse than the burning of Nalanda University or the Library of Alexandria.
I'd like to note that pre-Columbian contact estimates for the population of the Americas vary wildly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_the_Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas
I'd like to note that conquistadors actively spread disease amongst natives. They knew what they were doing.
I mean, even if they didn't, the mass enslaving and slaughter performed by the conquistadors is enough to prove that they were evil genocidal fucks.
And we're not entirely sure what the disease even was.
Probably many. Nobody had any resistance to diseases from either landmass, so even the common cold corona viruses probably wiped the floor of the Americas. Smallpox kicked the shit out of everyone, as did measles, and malaria always kicks the crap out of people too, though that might have been native to the Americas already.
New diseases were also introduced to Europe, though the severity was probably much lower. One of the STDs is a new world disease, though I forget which one. I think it's syphilis.
Columbus: "Oh boy, I can't wait to enslave and work these people to death!"
The largest human genocide the planet has ever seen and pretty much nobody knows or understands the scale of it.
Where are my science fiction stories in which the Mayans or Incans discovered and conquered Europe? And don't give me that Guns, Germs, and Steel tripe. One Roman or Chinese explorer could have effectively vaccinated the Americas and leveled technological disparities. Then, the Americas would have more resembled another Europe in terms of political strength, probably with its own desire for hegemony.
You can play it in Crusader Kings II, with the DLC "Sunset Invasion".
If you're in it for the long-haul, you can then eventually export/convert your save into Europa Universalis, then Victoria, then Hearts of Iron, then possibly Stellaris?
If you want to learn more about pre-contact Americas and the impact of the Columbia exchange, please read the book 1492.