this post was submitted on 04 May 2025
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I've been listening to Proles Pod, they have a new series of episodes called "The Stalin Eras" which I found extremely good for history of the Soviet Union from 1917 to the end of the Great Patriotic War. Using that as a source and a few other sources, I've compiled some main points regarding the Motherboard-Ribbedcock that dispels the prevalent propaganda that it was a "Soviet-Nazi pact to expand the Soviet Union because they were bad". I've used mostly Wikipedia in the links so you can use it against libs:

1) Most of the invaded "Polish" territories actually belong to modern Lithuania, Ukraine and Belarus. In 1919, Poland started the Polish-Ukrainian war and invaded Ukraine, Belarus and part of the RSFSR. This so-called "carving of Poland by the Soviet Union" liberated many formerly oppressed non-Polish national ethnicities such as Lithuanians in Polish-controlled Vilnius arguably being genocided, or ceding the city of Lviv to the Ukraine SSR. Sorry for the ugly map, I made it myself and it's my first attempt (I made it with GIMP lmao):

Edit: added the following map (source) showing the majority-ethnicities in 1931-Poland for further reference. Funny how, comparing both maps, the rough boundary between Polish and Ukrainian/Russian/Belarusian ethnic majority seems to really overlap with the extent to which the USSR invaded Poland curious-sickle

2) The Soviet Union had been trying for the entire 1930s to establish a mutual-defense agreement with Poland, France and Britain against the Nazis, under the doctrine of the then-People's Commisar of Foreign Affairs Maxim Litvinov. This decade-long proposal for mutual-defence went completely ignored by France and England, which hoped to see a Nazi-Soviet conflict that would destroy both countries, and Poland didn't agree to negotiations by itself either. The Soviet government went as far as to offer to send one million troops together with artillery, tanking and aviation, to Poland and France. The response was ignoring these pleas and offerings.

Furthermore, this armistice between the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany happened only one year after the Munich Betrayal. The Soviet Union and France had a Mutual Defense Agreement with Czechoslovakia, which France (together with the UK) unilaterally violated in agreement with the Nazis when ceding Czechoslovak territories to Nazi Germany. Stalin offered France, as an alternative to the Munich Betrayals, a coordinated and two-front attack to Nazi Germany, which France rejected in favour of the Munich Agreements.

3) The Soviet Union had been through WW1 up to 1917, the Russian Civil War up to 1922 (including a famine that killed millions) in which western powers like France, England or the USA invaded the Bolsheviks and helped the tsarist Whites to reestablish tsarism, which ultimately ended with a costly Bolshevik victory; the many deaths of famine during the land-collectivization of 1929-1933, and up to 1929 was a mostly feudal empire with little to no industry to speak of. Only after the 1929 and 1934 5-year plans did the USSR manage to slightly industrialize, but these 10 years of industrialization were barely anything in comparison with the 100 years of industrialization Nazi Germany enjoyed. The Soviet Union in 1939 was utterly underdeveloped to face Nazi Germany alone, as proven further by the 27 million casualties in the war that ended Nazism. The fact that the Soviet Union "carved Eastern Europe" in the so-called "secret protocol" was mostly in self-defense. The geography of the Great European Plain made it extremely difficult to have any meaningful defenses against Nazis with weaponry and technological superiority, again proven by the fact that the first meaningful victory against Nazis was not in open field but in the battle of Stalingrad, which consisted more of a siege of a city. The Soviet Union, out of self-preservation, wanted to simply add more Soviet-controlled distance between themselves and the Nazis. You don't have to take my word for all of this, you can hear it from western diplomats and officials from the period itself. I hope nonbody will find my choice of personalities to reflect a pro-Soviet bias (I have another post with many more quotes, these are just a few of them):

“In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)

“It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.

"One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course” Neville Chamberlain House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact's signing)

"It seemed to me that the Soviet leaders believed conflict with Nazi Germany was inescapable. But, lacking clear assurances of military partnership from England and France, they resolved that a ‘breathing spell’ was urgently needed. In that sense, the pact with Germany was a temporary expedient to keep the wolf from the door” Joseph E. Davies (U.S. Ambassador to the USSR, 1937–1938) Mission to Moscow (1941)

I could go on with quotes but you get my point.

4) The Soviet Union invaded Poland 2 weeks after the Nazis, at a time when there was no functioning Polish government anymore. Given the total crushing of the Polish forces by the Nazis and the rejection of a mutual-defense agreement from England and France with the Soviets, there is only one alternative to Soviet occupation of Eastern Poland: Nazi occupation of Eastern Poland. Seriously, what was the alternative, letting Nazis genocide even further east, killing arguably millions more in the process over these two years between Molotov-Ribbentrop and Operation Barbarossa? France and England, which did have a mutual-defense agreement with Poland, initiated war against Germany as a consequence of the Nazi invasion, but famously did not start war against the Soviets, the main reason in my opinion being the completely different character of the Soviet invasion. Regardless of this, please tell me. After the rejection of mutual-defense agreements with the Soviet Union: what was the alternative other than Nazi occupation of Eastern Poland?

Edit 2: 5) I, the guy who wrote this wall of text, am a Spaniard. The Soviet Union is the only country which sold weapons to and supported the antifascist side of the Spanish civil war in 1936-1939. The Soviet Union not only declared opposition to fascism in Europe, it is the only country pre-1939 to actually fight it outside its borders. While the Italian Fascists and the German Nazis bombed the cities of the republican-controlled areas of Spain, the liberal west looked to the other side, and the USSR was the only country to offer material support and actual troops to the Spanish partisans. So, as a Spaniard, fuck you if you diminish the role of the USSR in the antifascist struggle in Europe.

Thanks for reading :)

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[–] GoodGuyWithACat@hexbear.net 30 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Gonna make an assignment for my high schoolers that starts with the "Stalin and Hitler holding hands" cartoon and then completely unpack it with quotes and figures like these. Even in the most liberal of the united states, official state standards push "Stalin killed millions and was actually the same as Hitler". Industrialization is a footnote because what's important is that dictators used force and propaganda to eliminate rivals (which Western Democracies never use!)

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 10 points 5 days ago

Cool! For more quotes (in case you wanna browse through them), I can point you to a previous post of mine from which I extracted them

[–] RedDawn@hexbear.net 19 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Great post, saving this for future reference.

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago

That's too nice :) thanks, comrade. Also, I added a new map of majority-ethnicities in Poland in 1931 for further reference

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Great post gold-antifa

I think most here have probably already read this, but just in case, here's Really Existing Fascism from Redsails.

I aim to turn the historical narrative of a genocidal Soviet Union defeated by a well-meaning liberal West fully on its head.

Lots of connections to your post here!

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 10 points 5 days ago

Huh, I had somehow never come accross that, I'll have a look at it when I have some time, thanks!

[–] Frivolous_Beatnik@hexbear.net 15 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Digressing to treat topics for a moment; I have been reading the 6th edition of Achtung! Cthulhu (call of cthulhu ttrpg set in ww2), and its Guide to the Eastern Front specifically. It is strangely nuanced in that it notes the reality of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact as a measure to buy time after France and British rejections and it even mentions the Munich betrayal.

The weird but not entirely unexpected thing is it then goes on to portray Stalin as stupid and bloodthirsty, and "not one step back" as an "unbelievably cruel" order that blindly threw soldiers into a meat grinder.

This is after it gives relatively neutral or positive portrayals of Zhukov, Molotov, Beria, Khruschev, and Tito - Stalin is the only dude in the book who's portrayed as a cartoon character. It ofc praises Lenin as a genius organizer and strategist in comparison too. The cognitive dissonance is intense - it even acknowledges that the Finns were fighting on the fascist side which is an unusual for this type of media, but only Stalin is unequivocally evil.

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 17 points 5 days ago

Smells of Trot propaganda, ngl. AFAIK they're most of the ones who will (reasonably) praise Lenin and the pre-1924 Bolsheviks, and then turn around and stop their materialist analysis and say that the post-1924 vanguard that chose Stalin's "Socialism in One Country" as the route to go were either bamboozled or repressed by this simultaneously stupid and machiavellically smart Georgian Bolshevik veteran. I still haven't heard a coherent response on why the repression of the Makhnovschina and the Kronstadt rebellion were based and good but any form of repression post-1924 is unequivocally evil and stems from personal interests of an upper class of Bonapartist bureaucrats.

[–] AnarchoBolshevik@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I get the feeling that merely explaining why the German–Soviet Pact of 1939 was necessary or inevitable (never mind ‘good’ or ‘justified’) is only going to provoke generic antisocialists into immediately calling you ‘a literal nazi’ and possibly even somebody worse than all of the Axis dictators combined.

Of course, generic antisocialists have no issue with anybody justifying Finland’s alliance with the Third Reich, and would most likely write off Finland’s tolerance for antisemitism, tolerance for Fascist propaganda, quest for spazio vitale, cemeteries dedicated to Axis soldiers, unique ability to buy Fascist goods on credit, sale of nickel to the Reich, internment of 24,000 Russians (causing 4,200 deaths), deportation of 2,800 Soviet POWs to the Reich, murder of Communists and Jews among the Soviet POWs in Axis-controlled northern Finland in 1942, murder of Roma and involvement in other Axis war crimes.

Good luck getting so much as a half-assed apology like ‘maybe some mistakes were made’, ‘nobody’s perfect’ or ‘sorry if you were offended’ from antisocialists. In fact, they might even call you ‘a nazi’ for bringing up this history at all. I know that that seems highly unlikely given that it would make absolutely no fucking sense whatsoever, but hey, they basically said that about Rossoliński-Liebe when he discussed the crimes of Ukraine’s Axis collaborators.

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 6 points 5 days ago

You always have great insight, I really appreciate your presence in lemmy. Thanks a lot, comrade.

Unfortunately yes, you're right, all the historical and material analysis will be discarded by posting a smug emoji next to a picture of Stalin holding hands with a Nazi diplomat.

[–] Edie@hexbear.net 11 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

I really wished that libs would read. While this is great, having been working on a book (The Cold War & Its Origins) that starts from 1917 and been going more or less chronologically through time, really understanding the French but especially British fucking shit up, primes you to also understand MR in context. It's just something that deboooonking like this doesn't do.

[–] AlesSs@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Stalin offered France, as an alternative to the Munich Betrayals, a coordinated and two-front attack to Nazi Germany, which France rejected in favour of the Munich Agreements.

Do you have a source for this specifically? I've read up quite a bit on the Munich Betrayal and M-R, but never heard about this

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 1 points 4 days ago

I don't have a specific source for this, but it's pretty clear to me from the following:

France and Czechoslovakia had a mutual defense agreement since the 1925 Locarno treaties

The Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia had a mutual defense agreement since 1935

The Soviet Union and France had a sort of mutual defense agreement also since 1935

The Soviet Union was visibly upset at the result of the Munich Betrayals. Also, from this Wikipedia article as of the time of writing of this comment: "The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia's assistance, provided that the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory. Both countries refused to allow the Soviet army to use their territories", using this source: Ragsdale, Hugh (2001). "The Butenko Affair: Documents from Soviet-Romanian Relations in the Time of the Purges, Anschluss, and Munich". The Slavonic and East European Review. 79 (4): 698–720. doi:10.1353/see.2001.0004 [Add to Citavi project by DOI] . ISSN 0037-6795. JSTOR 4213322

[–] Staines@hexbear.net 4 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I condemn the USSR for liberating the occupied Polish colonies purely out of practicality rather than because it was the right thing to do.

[–] vovchik_ilich@hexbear.net 4 points 5 days ago

I guess you're being ironic, but just in case you're not: I don't think myself more wise regarding the balance between geopolitics and moral convictions than the ones who saved Europe from fascism.

[–] SevenSkalls@hexbear.net 1 points 4 days ago

This would've been useful a week ago when that Polish person was in one of the hexbear threads complaining about this pact and the Soviet occupation of Poland.