this post was submitted on 12 May 2025

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Installing Linux Doesn't Need to Change. The Experience Does. (peertube.wtf)

submitted 1 month ago by meldrik@lemmy.wtf to c/linux@lemmy.ml

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[–] utopiah@lemmy.ml 88 points 1 month ago (9 children)

Didn't watch the video... but the premise "The biggest barrier for the new Linux user isn't the installer" is exactly why Microsoft is, sadly, dominating the end-user (not servers) market.

What Microsoft managed to do with OEMs is NOT to have an installer at all! People buy (or get, via their work) a computer and... use it. There is not installation step for the vast majority of people.

I'm not saying that's good, only that strategy wise, if the single metric is adoption rate, no installer is a winning strategy.

[–] meldrik@lemmy.wtf 40 points 1 month ago (11 children)

Most people who go out and buy a computer doesn't understand what an OS is. If Linux was standard when you bought a PC, it would be the dominating OS. I mean, you could switch the OS to Linux on the computers and I think most people wouldn't realise when they buy it lol

[–] utopiah@lemmy.ml 28 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Indeed, so my argument is that sure a "better" installer might change a small fraction of the marketshare, say 1%, but it's not enough to change significantly, say 10% or even reach parity.

An interesting example is the Steam Deck coming with Linux installed. Sure there are few people who do (by choice) install Windows alongside Linux but AFAIK the vast majority do not. That's IMHO particularly interesting on a topic, gaming, where Windows has been traditionally the #1 reason people picked a specific OS.

[–] furrowsofar@beehaw.org 4 points 1 month ago

Doing dual install is advanced. No nontechnical user should consider it.

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[–] Exec@pawb.social 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Even then those who have to installers don't really have a good experience with distros of wide market share (narrowing to Linux distros only), especially with whatever fresh hell Calamares is. (It doesn't even support LVM or just installation with specified mounts points if you already set up your partition layout!)
Seriously, I've had better experience with the installer Ubuntu Server uses.

[–] N0x0n@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It does "support" LVM, but with a wacky/hacky workaround and that's a real shame !

Also, there is some talking on github on how they will probably completely drop LVM in the near futur... That's not what someone should expect from a Linux installer!

[–] Exec@pawb.social 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (4 children)

Also, there is some talking on github on how they will probably completely drop LVM in the near futur... That's not what someone should expect from a Linux installer!

It's a shitshow. Looking at their repo's issues list has lots of noise, but the worst of them is that the LVM issue has been open for over a year now. Sure, open source, anyone's free to work on it by why would distros use such a feature incomplete installer?

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[–] silentjohn@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I looked for a reasonable Linux laptop for my wife and either it was European (large shipping costs) or ridiculously marked up.

She just went with a windows laptop 🤷‍♀️

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[–] oshu@lemmy.world 68 points 1 month ago (5 children)

The vast majority of people have no experience installing an OS and likely never will.

The typical user uses whatever is preinstalled when the get the hardware.

My father-in-law wrecked his windows pc with malware over and over so I bought him a Wow PC https://www.mywowcomputer.com/ and he loves it. I don't think he has any idea its running linux.

[–] paequ2@lemmy.today 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

How do updates work with WOW computers? Or does the software just never get updated? Or do you just update the computer for him every now and then? What distro is this using underneath?

[–] oshu@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago

The updates are automatic. They seem to have rolled their own desktop environment. Not sure which distro. The main selling point was that I don't need to maintain it for him. I am registered as his "tech buddy" so they contact me if something needs to be done hands on. In 3 years no issues/calls so far.

[–] HelloRoot@lemy.lol 14 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

From the website landing page :

New programs and updates are provided automatically for the life of your WOW! Computer.

From https://www.mywowcomputer.com/open-source/

Distro is based on tiny core

The source files can be found by following 3 links deep to https://www.telikin.com/source/ doesn't look like they include their frontend though, which might be proprietary, idk.

(you lazy bastard /j)

[–] Eyedust@lemmy.dbzer0.com 14 points 1 month ago

Yeah, I was just thinking this needs a lot more upfront info. I mean, kudos for the site that harkens back to the 90's infomercial era and keeping it comfortable for those generations, but a page with some specs and actual info would go nicely with that.

[–] krolden@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 month ago

Lol only $1300

[–] that_leaflet@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Honestly I think the bigger barrier is the BIOS. The button to get to the boot menu is different on every motherboard.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 5 points 1 month ago (2 children)

My brother in Christ, do you think an average person knows what BIOS/boot menu are?

[–] vaionko@sopuli.xyz 5 points 1 month ago

They don't even know what an operating system is

[–] that_leaflet@lemmy.world 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

That's what I'm saying. The OS installer can be super nice and intuitive, but the process of getting to that point, messing with the BIOS, is troublesome.

I know in the past there's been tools that allowed you to install Linux from within Windows. That would be a great way to work around this problem, though I think there are certain limitations with that approach.

[–] xavier666@lemm.ee 3 points 1 month ago

You can have a perfect distro on a USB which boots into Linux automatically when inserted into your PC and it preserves all your files and favorites. Still it will hardly increase the market share by 1 or 2%. It's because a super minority of people will bother to get the USB drive.

The core issue we have to understand is "availability of preinstalled Linux on PCs in brick and mortar shops". Till this is solved, we won't get market share. The only reason people are using Linux on their SteamDeck is availability.

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[–] wakko@lemmy.world 57 points 1 month ago (24 children)

Oh look. Yet another post demanding things from a volunteer-based community without actually volunteering their own time to work on solving the problem they're insisting needs solving.

I'm sure these demands will totally make a difference in ways that putting their time into actually writing code wouldn't.

[+] Abnorc@lemm.ee 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

[deleted]

[–] wakko@lemmy.world 6 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Correct. There are actual efforts going on to resolve those issues. Which begs the question, why post vague exhortations for people to "do something" about this, rather than focusing the efforts in places where it will make a difference?

This isn't a post saying "hey, come to this project and pitch in." This post is just bitching into the ether and then some folks getting butthurt when the pointless performative nonsense is called out for what it is.

Posts like this one happen on a near-daily basis all across FOSS mailing lists. It's trivial to find numerous, often young, often inexperienced people who think their idea is the one that "fixes everything". These people reason that everyone should fall over one another to put effort into their magical idea once they see the obviousness and correctness of the idea. Clearly, it's simply incorrect to find fault in an obviously perfect idea such as this one.

It's just so weird that literally none of the people with these amazing ideas are the ones doing a "git init" and getting started on the work of actually implementing their amazing ideas. Bizarre how so many spectacular, world-changing ideas need to be worked on by literally anyone BUT their champion. What a horrible world we must live in filled with nasty, evil people who simply won't volunteer their personal time when we should feel so blessed with this holy relic of an idea.

This narrative is so childish that the only response it deserves is the one echoed by nearly the entire FOSS community, "Patches welcome!"

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[–] furrowsofar@beehaw.org 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (9 children)

Just saying, not my experience. I have used linux for over 25 years and nontechnical users in my family have also for almost 20 years. By in large it has worked just fine.

The big issue is Linux is not the OS that is supplied when people go to the store and buy something (well except for Android and Chromebooks which are Linux and are popular). It is also not the system or have the apps their friends use. It also does not have the huge supply, support, and word of mouth ecosystem. Buying hardware especially addons is confusing. Getting support is hard unless you have friends that use. Buying Linux preinstalled often costs more. Change too is hard and there has to be some driver and for most people there is not.

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[–] brax@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 month ago (9 children)

Or users could maybe learn how to do things without having their hands held and treated like babies every step of the way; or at least how to search for information to find what they need... 🤷🏻‍♂️

[–] that_leaflet@lemmy.world 30 points 1 month ago (2 children)

A person can only specialize in a small number of things.

I’m happy to learn about computers, but when it comes to, say, cars, I have no desire to learn. If I have a car problem, I don’t have the knowledge of how to even look up a problem.

[–] Skeletonek@lemmy.zip 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

In today world, you don't need to specialize in something to fix basic issues. Simple online search will help you with most basic issues You encounter which is probably 60-70% issues most people have with cars, computers or etc.

I don't blame people that they can't recompile a kernel, applying a patch to fix some random issue. But I blame people that didn't want to spend 30s on searching how to fix their minor issue like for example checking execute permission for appimage, Search engines today even tell you how to do it in a small AI window on top of the page.

Internet really helped people to gain a basic knowledge in a matter of seconds and yet they still don't want it

[–] RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works 10 points 1 month ago

Just built a new PC literally this weekend. WiFi mouse and Bluetooth drivers did not work out of the box. I had to spend hours searching through what little info exists out there tangentially related to my problem to find:

WiFi drivers were fixed in kernel 6.10, which fortunately Mint let's you upgrade to 6.11 at this time with relative ease.

Bluetooth drivers do not appear to have been fixed, but I might have a shot if I switch over to a rolling release distro and relearn everything I'm used to from using Debian-based distros for years. Dongle is on order, but I don't love having to have 2 bluetooth devices.

It's unclear if mouse drivers have been fixed in the kernel, but I was able to find a nice set of drivers/controller on github which fixed some mouse problems but only if i used their experimental branch and it did not work with my wireless adapter. Very fortunately I had an old wireless adapter from a mouse from the same brand that was able to close the loop, but that was just dumb luck.

By EOD today I should have everything I want working, but it wasn't "30s" of searching - to your point, 60-70% of problems may be solvable that way, but having 1/3 of your problems require technical expertise is not going to bring Linux out of the hobbyist domain.

Note: this is not a complaint against Linux, just a statement of fact. These things have gotten a lot better over the years, and things get easier to find as the community grows and these struggles get discussed more openly, but there's still lots of challenges out there that take more than a 30s search.

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[–] cerement@slrpnk.net 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

search for information when Google intentionally lies to you and hides results to keep you on their site looking at ads longer …

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[–] Libra@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (10 children)

They could. But you and I both know they won't because most people don't care about anything beyond 'make the magic box work so I can do my job / play my game / etc.'

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[–] 7arakun@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago

This is part of what keeps Linux a niche for enthusiasts and professionals though. The average Windows/Mac user barely understands how to use their computer. Widespread adoption means meeting those people where they are. Whether that's a goal worth pursuing is kind of a different question.

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[–] thedruid@lemmy.world 7 points 1 month ago (13 children)

Yeah I love linux, but it's user experience , while light years ahead of what I used in the late nineties and early aughts, is still clunky compared to others.

That being said, honestly most of linux's issues are GUI related, when it comes to going mainstream. The capabilities and efficiency are far ahead of windows and mac os but most users don't care.

Directions, examples and mundane work should all be seamless for mainstream consumers.

A good rule of thumb is, " if a user has to look for it to fix it, or open a terminal window to install software, then it won't be accepted fully.

Mainstream users don't want to type commands in a prompt. Why does everyone think windows blew DOS out of the water in sales? It wasn't because DOS wasn't working. It was, hell early windows ( I started on 3.11 so that's my limit of knowledge ) still used DOS.

So bottom line. Start putting the non tech consumer first or we'll forever be stuck in this "almost mainstream" category forever.

[–] brax@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 month ago

Idk mainstream users should learn to learn and empower themselves with knowledge.

The enshitification of hardware and software by constantly catering to the dumbest of people is hurting everybody.

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[–] Ironfist79@lemmy.world 5 points 1 month ago

Which Linux? The installation process for most distributions these days is pretty simple.

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