I think this is a fair choice for Beehaw to make, but I am frustrated that now I have less content to read. I wish we had better community discovery tools.
this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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Some of y'all getting angry need to look at yourself in the mirror. The whole point of federation was to allow communities to do things like this if they want.
A lot of new people are going to see this mudslinging and rightfully turn around. Nobody is coming to Lemmy to see drama between instances.
I thought the whole point of federation was that everything from every federated instance was connected and I only need one account to see every part of it. The fact that federation has been the only discussion since the blackout is not good for the alternatives to reddit. My whole life is tech and if it's this distracting to me I can't imagine any remotely average user being interested. The fact that this was the perfect time to be part of an alternative but the whole experience has mostly just proven reddits "give it a week" response true.
I thought the whole point of federation was that everything from every federated instance was connected and I only need one account to see every part of it.
No. If an instance hosts toxic communities then your instance can choose to defederate from it. You don't have to wait for the centralized authority to ban them. It's about being able to choose your admins and form a web of "good" communities.
I thought the whole point of federation was that everything from every federated instance was connected and I only need one account to see every part of it.
That was never going to happen, not even in the best possible case.
Far left and far right are always going to split off. Do you want to be having discussions about race with neo nazis? I don't. Let them go to their own dark corner of the internet.
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That’s fair, buuuuut why are the admins moderating comments? Why shouldn’t the moderators mod their communities and report problematic users to admins so those users can be blocked.
The admins are probably modding the communities because they probably created them but the proper solution should be to find mods, not just defederate
It’s not a permanent defederation, and it’s only with those two instances. There are still hundreds of other instances that they are still federated with.
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I kinda expected that after seeing them purge some threads made by lemmy users. I have to imagine we kbin users are gonna get cut next lmao.
Good riddance. I like the no-downvote style but overzealous mods just create their own pillow fort of the same 5 users regurgitating the same shit over and over.
Perhaps harsh but beehaw strikes me as the tumblr/progressive/sjw types that really wanna build their safe space. Which makes me wonder why they're federating at all lol.
I'm very glad that kbin seems to have a "let's get all the content and speak freely" sorta vibe going on right now. hopefully things stay that way.
Does kbin have good mod tools?
I'm fairly new to kbin but we do have mod tools here, and people have used them to moderate their community. So far I haven't seen any issues with spam or what I'd say is trolling (though beehaw may think different). As for whether the mod tools are "good" I guess is one's opinion. I find they're enough to moderate the small communities I started here on kbin, though I have to imagine much larger (100k-1m) communities might struggle with the tools available. kbin is very new and still under development. so we'll see.
Yeah. I would also imagine that a place like Beehaw is going to attract bad actors and trolls who want to wreck the place at the expense of Beehaw users, who specifically joined in order to have a community of nice people to hang out with.
the vibe here on kbin is I think very similar to what you might find on more serious subreddits or on something like hacker news. we're interested in content, discussion, etc. but there's not really overt trolling. I rarely see "shitposting" and other stuff as well. If you think "nerds who wanna talk about stuff and share news/content" you've got the right gist. I don't really think anyone I've seen here would go out of there way to cause problems. but kbin does have open signups (not invite).
idk what the mindset is for lemmy, beehaw, and the rest of the fediverse, but I think due to the long downtime for federation here on kbin there's this vibe of "we have kbin stuff, and then we have stuff from those other guys" It's to the point where someone quickly made a script to be able to easily see where someone is posting from.
In that regard, it's always very obvious to me when I'm among beehaw users and in beehaw communities. same for when I'm in lemmy spaces, or kbin spaces. whereas I think lemmy users may not know or care about that distinction. Though this might just be my own musing and others aren't thinking like that haha.
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I got the same sense. Authoritarianism runs on both sides of the political spectrum.
While their FAQ touted an emphasis on empathy, the heavy flowery language while also making a point to refuse to have written rules at all somehow gave me a feeling of double-speak. The idea is nice, but now you're open to being banned because they felt like it, and you can't even explain how you weren't breaking the rules if no rules exist. Refusing to allow anyone but themselves to create communities backs up the authoritarian streak. Not interested. I assume if they don't, I'll eventually be banned there anyway. I really like debate and I really dislike dictatorships.
At least if one of the largest instances out there goes full Korea, it will leave other instances a chance to be noticed in their wake. It sounds salty, but I'm still getting used to what federation means for a platform and when we were still initially federating my entire feed was utterly nothing but beehaw. I am salty. I want as much variety as I can get.
Yup. Taking a look at their ethos/manifesto stuff it instantly became clear to me what sort of place beehaw is, and it's not one I'm super fond of, so I doubt I'll ever make an account there.
Yeah beehaw is pretty big at least from my perspective. I see three big communities: lemmy, kbin, and beehaw. and beehaw is easily the odd one out with their weird manifesto stuff lol. Which is why when they said they were defederating from lemmy, it kinda struck me as "oh kbin is next then" lol. but each of the three kinda have a different vibe to me, so maybe kbin is tolerable to beehaw while lemmy isn't?
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there are already users over there asking this very question lol
Well we are one of the largest instances out there with open signups...
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This is a bad move, what do they plan to accomplish here?
They should be running a standard forum software, but are already in too deep to fix the actual problem.
I guess. That is the whole point right? If you like how a instance is run, you join them. And if any beehaw users don't like this direction it's taking, they can always make another account on Lemmy.
Fediverse allows for great potential of redundant, diverse, and flexible meta content consumption, but we the users are bearing some of that growing pain right now as this all grows and things get shuffled on the fly.
They can’t scale. They will die.
Or they'll just be a smallish instance building the kind of community they want to build. There's nothing wrong with knowing what you want to be and not trying to be more.
Ostensibly they don't wish to scale at the expense of the quality of their community.
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this is interesting!
Certainly so. From a sort of... sociological point I'm wondering what the impacts are of major instances growing independent of each other. I feel like I can already feel it with kbin and lemmy both growing separately during the blackout. I'm wondering if the trend for major instances is going to be where each one has their own unique culture or if they will eventually homogenize.
Only real concern here, although I didn't participate during the mastodon surge last year, I heard that defederation became a bit of an issue with how common there. Granted, I feel like the impact is probably less here with the fact that you are interacting with topics rather than people.
I'm personally hoping for a unique culture, especially since we currently have quite a good one. Going solo is just going solo -- it's sad and kinda dumb, since it defeats the entire point of the fediverse, but if they're ok hanging out on a closed forum it's not like those haven't existed for decades.
I hadn't thought something like Mastodon would be able to defederate. Thinking about it, that would be far more disastrous for a platform aimed at following individuals to be able to do. The stress induced from having to choose an instance knowing they block other instances and being unable to even tell if that's a bad thing or not until you investigate each and every one anyway. Having to look up what your favorite people are on, if you're on Mastodon, so you can get news without leaving any of them out. What a mess.
They’re not going solo though. They are still connected to hundreds of other instances. Including Lemmy.ml, which is still the biggest instance.
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i think it really depends on the admin. I saw many threads on mastodon of hundreds of instances defederated with and listed reasons. some made sense, others did not.
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All this talk of defederation and blocklists makes me generally uneasy. I understand how it's easy to fall into. Nobody wants political extremists and criminals and bad actors and stuff on their instance, so it makes sense you might want to ban trollfactory dot xyz, nazihq dot us, and/or uncompromisingmarxist dot boats, or whatever.
But I think the stupidest shit I saw on reddit were the subreddits that would ban you for even posting on an ideologically competing subreddit, with no consideration for the message you'd written. This is worse than that because it's the opposite, and includes even reading the content.
Imagine if when you went to post on /r/RestaurantOwners, and its AutoMod had the power to then immediately ban you from even looking at /r/antiwork and /r/WorkReform. Imagine posting to /r/conservative to correct someone's error only to get permanently banned from viewing any "leftist" subs ever again. This is the vibe I get from this and as much as I want to avoid creating nodules of extremism and hatred, I want less to have people grabbing my head, taping my mouth, and averting my eyes from things they don't like when they don't even know what my thinking is.
I feel like widespread trigger happy banlists are the death of small instances, too. Maybe one small instance doesn't catch some newly registered asshole for a day or two but it's too late. The 16-hour a day lifestyle moderator on a massive instance who has gangstalking delusions over nebulous "trolls" has already blacklisted all 150 of your users permanently and listed your domain for defederation as officially owned by the Nazi party in a massive register shared by the top 100 largest instances. The number of times I've heard this story with small Mastodon instances is more than I care for.
You're not banned from looking at anything. Just go to their instance, abide by their signup rules and don't do the shit they defederated to avoid.
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Can I get a ELI5 or a source or something?
If you make an account on beehaw you cant see anything from lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works. Same in the opposite direction.
And what happens if users from lemmy.world were already following beehaw communities?
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