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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Mshuser@kbin.social to c/men@kbin.social

I hear all this talk about women's safety when out on the streets (a real issue which I do acknowledge) and how we as men need to do our part to make sure they feel comfortable, safe, and that we hold other men accountable when doing the same thing. Absolutely have no problem with this. But one of the main issues men have is a rise in male loneliness and the expectation to be the one to take an active role in interaction especially those that are romantic in nature. How are we supposed to take the lead and approach while keeping women safe at the same time when approaching her could make her feel uncomfortable, even in safe environments such as social groups, bars & clubs, workplaces, etc?

I found a couple of videos which explains why men are out here street harassing women. The link to this video there's a section called "bottom line"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZiaTDxJ-rQ

The guy here basically goes on to explain that a woman is not gonna make a move on him, that he needs to show her he's the man and have a wolf mentality. Obviously, the way he worded this is just wrong but this is the mentality I see from men who are trying to be the take charge types. I don't think this kind of thinking comes from nowhere. Men already deal with the expectation to approach and make the first move. If you put that much pressure on men, it's gonna make them wanna find communities that will tell them how to do exactly that. Guess where they turn to? The redpill/PUA. These are the communities that teach them the alpha-beta nonsense, how they got ideas that "a woman loves a confident masculine man, show her that by letting her feel your strong presence" and they learn messed up tips and tactics to do exactly that, which then leads to men making women feel uncomfortable.

For anyone that watches the 12 hour video of a woman walking down the street, within those hours, a lot of men came out to talk to her. I don't think these men would be doing that if they didn't face any expectations to be the pursuers in courtship. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A&ab_channel=RobBliss

Over 90% of women don't initiate interactions with men first & often expect them to do it, and I think this is a huge problem that's contributing to both men & women's issues. Safety is a big issue for women on the daily and I think male expectations in dating are a big factor for that. The expectations for men to do something first will make women not take an active role, resulting in most men feeling undesired (& also lonely tho male loneliness is a multi-faceted issue), and when they decide to do something about it, they turn to communities that will teach them strategies beyond the mainstream to give them that success, which then turns into having a lot of men out there street harassing women. It doesn't just have to be street harassment. This can also happen in social groups, friend groups, bars and harassment can very much happen there.

So the first step here is for society to stop expecting men to make the first move and not just that. Stop expecting them to read signs (especially signs women gives as an invitation as her "first move" as they're subtle, not obvious), stop expecting men to start flirting, and stop expecting men to be the first ones to initiate conversations about sex. We should start telling women to be more active (and obviously active) and do some of these things to take the pressure off of men.

This doesn't mean that dating should completely fall into the woman's hands. What I am saying ultimately is to not have expectations of any gender to bear the heavy burden of doing everything. Once we get rid of those expectations, then we can start implementing some gender neutral courtship rules that allows men and women to take active agency without much pressure. But I don't believe we as a society (given our current practices) should partake in active agency with dating until we've gotten rid of those expectations.

Taking the expectations off isn't going to stop SOME men from being psychos, there's always going to be bad apples in society that makes things uncomfortable for everybody. But I don't believe women are getting approached only by these types. Chances are, they're getting approached by men who are dealing with societal expectations of being a man (this doesn't mean u should entertain him. If he makes you feel unsafe just do what u have to do to gtfo there. Just cuz men have the expectation doesn't mean u throw away your need to feel safe. If no man is allowed to approach on the streets, then any man, even if he is decent and friendly in their approach, should be doing that as that is street harassment and would make you feel uncomfortable.). How is it that the average man can go a day without having a woman or another man bother him, but women can't go a whole day without having any man try his shot with her? This all goes back to the expectations we have of men.

We should not be doing any active courting in dating nor give out any dating advice until we have reached a point where society doesn't expect men to be the initiators all the time. That means adults telling boys that they don't need to take up that role and that it's okay for women to make the first move. That means women telling their female friends to not expect guys to make the first move and do the heavy lifting, especially in the beginning stages.

We have already been told not to assume that a woman wants us to approach just because she's dressed a certain way. We have already been told that we shouldn't be out here bothering anyone on the streets. We have already been told that if we get told "no" or get a "no" signal, we accept it and move on. Absolutely fine with that. But we cannot have these rules and then conform men to the expectations of being the pursuer all the damn time and not expect that most of these interactions will turn into street harassment, especially when these men turn into martyrs when they do go to TRP/PUA communities that will tell them practical yet messed up tips that just end up making women feel unsafe. This is just backwards and will only ensure that this toxic cycle continues.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The title is not me asking anything, it's a title of the video I linked to. Caitlyn V is the one who came up with it, not me.

Of course safety is a very legitimate concern, but it's been something that's been used to justify very distant behaviour and misandric treatment of men, especially when you look at statistics where it's only a very few men (who are repeat offenders btw) that are out there committing them (both reported and unreported incidents), yet people use these statistics to act as if a large majority of men are out there committing crimes which isn't true. There are situations where safety does apply, but when it's used to act as if every man is a potential offender in every normal interaction, that's when it becomes a problem.

For example, if a man were to come up to you and say hi, express interest or compliment you (in any context that isn't an isolated alleyway mind you), and your first instinct is to be distant from him, treat him as if all he wants is sex, or might murder or rape you in an initial meet, then that is overboard. Crime stats from nisvs and bjs shows they happen roughly 10% of the time in most incidents. The high likelihood of sex crimes happening is with someone they are familiar with. Still not large enough to treat as if every friend or romantic interest out there is gonna do it when you factor in the general male population.

Also, men make up majority of homicide victims even at the hands of other men, but even when we're talking about gendered violence in intimate settings, the rates of gender violence from female to male isn't that far apart from male to female yet that never gets talked about at all. Then there's also false allegations which are common enough yet it's still not legally recognized as a crime. Not enough men come out to share their stories due to public ridicule and even being seen as the bad guy, nor are men's issues being taken seriously by academia to be given a deeper look apart from government stats. Safety goes both ways my guy. But even with stats like this, you have to be careful not to apply this to all men and women (when you actually factor in the total male & female population, you find the number of offenders out there in a general context is less than 1% for both genders). Just because most crime offenders are men doesn't mean most men are out here committing crimes. I will link this post for you to see.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/

If you're talking about just talking to her, expressing interest, flirting, getting her contact information etc especially in public social environments, you're less likely to get assaulted in there. I'd go as far as to say that women have met men when they cold approach them when it was still a thing years ago and their relationships are just fine. What safety measures can you take here? Well if you're talking to a man at a bar, don't let him buy you a drink to avoid having it drugged, which doesn't mean you're not interested as you're still there talking to him. Likewise, if you meet a man on a street, keep your interactions in public and never engage him if there's a considerable distance between you and the public so your cries for help will be heard in case he tries something (tho meeting someone on the street is not something I would advice as safety concerns are pretty high here). Or if you fear he won't take rejection well, just give him a number even a fake one and gtfo of there. Or you just don't wanna talk to him or deal with another guy. You don't have to engage him at all if all you want to do is cut it short and leave, completely understandable. In all these interactions, make sure you have an open exit if you want out.

Going on a date with him? Inform your friends and keep your dates in the eye of public and exert your boundaries in case he wants to take you private. Afriad he might rape you when you guys get intimate? Set a recorder to record the interaction, let your friends know. In both cases where things get bad, pepper spray or attacking him in the genital area. Of course all of these are suggestion and the women themselves know these situations well enough to prepare for them. My point is you can engage openly with men while at the same time keeping your safety in mind.

Point is you can factor what could happen in these situations where you could be harmed in anyway, then come up with solutions to help counter them, but at the same time not need to fear of every man and live in perpetual fear of them constantly.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

You're right it shouldn't. Men can absolutely find happiness and contentment through other men's. My point wasn't even about compliments, it was about addressing the other side of desirability that the original post talks about. Women do give out compliments to men as nothing more than a compliment, but how many of them take an active role in making a man feel wanted, making him feel like he's being seduced and pursued by her? This is the bit I was talking about.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

100% agree with this. I have a personal qualifier. Whenever I talk to a woman and I get body language signals that indicate she doesn't want to talk to me or isn't interested in this conversation, or maybe she's just shy. What I would do is bring up the matter in an empathetic way and basically verbally gauge if she wants to talk or not. Now we're not entitled to a response to any question we ask and that's totally fine, but I believe approaching it this way qualifies women who verbalize their comfort with us rather than expecting us to read into the situation. So if she doesn't respond to that question the minute we bring it up, that tells us what we need to know about her communication style, and whether we as men want to engage with that or not.

As for the gentler guy situation, I written a recent article with solutions that I believe would help the gentler guy out. Lemme know what you think.

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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Mshuser@kbin.social to c/men@kbin.social

This article is inspired by a Youtuber Caitlyn V who is a sex coach. I've watched some of her videos and I find them to be very informative, especially about sex. I'll link it here below

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agscWsru7Gk&ab_channel=CaitlinV

She actually goes onto explain how not having sex for a long time can contribute to problems on mental health, emotional health, etc.

The second half of her video has the solutions to these problems and the last point is one I want to expand on. The first 2 solutions was to 1. Create feel good chemicals by exercising, eating healthy, leaning on trusted friends, etc and the 2. one is fuck yourself (not regular masturbation where you race to ejaculation, but slowly taking your time with it.). The third suggestion is where I take issue with and it's getting a sex worker.

Note I have nothing against sex work. I believe sex work is work and there's nothing wrong with getting it. My issue with this point is the way I believe society is set up to profit off of lonely and sexually frustrated men.

Paying for sex work is very expensive, like you have to be making the kind of money where the cost to even get these services are casual at best. Even if there are cheap option, I don't believe many men out there feel they should have to pay for experiences just to feel wanted.

Think about it this way. When you go outside to try to make friends, or to try and talk to a woman you find attractive, you notice how cold and distant people treat you in social places. In the first initial meeting, you're treated as a potential predator that has to prove himself to be a good person first, and even after you passed the test, you need to be mindful of not making her feel uncomfortable, and make having sex with them feel completely natural. It's also on you to make the sure interactions you lead the interactions in a way to keep her around, and basically really sell yourself. Couple that with the expectation society has for the man to be the pursuer, all of these things make a very daunting experience for men.

Men don't have a lot of options when it comes to dating and when they to have the opportunity, are expected to make sure it goes well. This setup creates a very convincing need for sex work, with a high demand of it coming from men because their basic needs aren't being met consistently.

I believe there needs to be a better solution rather than spending money on experiencing intimacy via sexual services. The most obvious way would be to stop demonizing men at a very ridiculous level, especially at the first meet, but most people on the left space don't like that idea cuz 'safety' and 'patriarchy' so obviously getting to a point where we don't do that is gonna take a long time, we need better short term solutions that doesn't cost money for that. Sexual services are fine when you get them here and there, not when it becomes a potentially long-term thing (I've known men who consistently get sex through prostitutes)

One of the solutions offered by Aba and Preach would be a solution I would offer in helping with this situation as well, mostly short-term.

https://youtu.be/P22ZpncT8B4?t=738

Now they're saying not to approach women and I don't think most women put men that approach them on blast that regular, but that's perfectly valid given the society we're living in. Me personally, I've done a lot of approaching and have been very experienced in it and I haven't been blasted on media, but this is because I gauge most situations I have going in. The process of learning it today is fucking hard so one slip up in an unlucky situation can turn your life upside down if you get blasted on social media.

Other solutions?

Read books and websites on people skills so you can work on talking to people. Don't get me wrong, we've all had natural experiences with talking to people, so I'm not implying you're all very socially inept that can't hold a conversation. I think a lot of the guys here actually have no problem with conversation, especially when talking to women. But maybe you don't have the kind of friends you do like having around, or maybe you don't have any afab friends or maybe you do, but again not the ideal person you want in your life. I'm mostly recommending this because if you want to have control over your own life and build better relationships, people skills are crucial. So the next time you're in a situation where you want to make friends with certain people or talk to a woman you find attractive, you know have the experience backed up to do it

Read books on dating material so you can make up for a lack of experience. However, this bit is very tricky as there's a lot of toxic dating advice out there. I got proper sources of healthy dating advice if you want my suggestion message me.

Next step is practicality. For social skills, go to a hobby-based group or club and put what you learned to the test. Preferably a new one, as if you're in an old group, they probably have a set image of you and depending on that, maybe harder to break out of. Finding a new social setting will give you a fresh start if this is the case. For practicing dating skills, I would highly recommend speed dating. Now don't expect to actually get dates from speed dating. In fact, as a man if you wanna find a date via speed dating, you're gonna be spending money for a long time. Instead, use them to practice your skills. Each date you have last up to 5 minutes so you have a very short timeframe to work with, but this is perfect as you get to work on initiating conversations and internalizing body language signals being sent out, and you'll be 'dating' multiple people in one setting so you have a lot of volume to work with for one night. This is to help improve your skills quickly, arming you with enough knowledge and experience to navigate life with a prepared lens.

Now the article is written from the perspective of someone that hasn't gone to any sexual services and don't really plan to. Has anyone gone to get sexual services? What was it like going there? Do you agree it to be a solution for guys problem with a lack of sex?

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

The only signal I consider to be valid is consent for sex

Yup, and I'd also add if you're out her doing say cold approaches, then reading signals also applies here as well. Other than that, if we're talking about women showing interest, she needs to use their words cuz chances are, I may not even notice her if she's sending them, making me more likely to go for someone I am attracted to. It's only natural.

That is nonsense

Yea sometimes I get the feeling when they talk about men's issues, it's done in a way it talks about men's toxic behaviour being cause by not being more like women or some shit like that

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submitted 1 year ago by Mshuser@kbin.social to c/men@kbin.social

I currently use fetlife as a way to connect with likeminded individuals. Sometimes they would make post about gender issues (usually female centered, and when it's male-centered it's usually about toxic male behaviour or how our problems are created by the 'patriarchy'.)

To the premise of the post is that the original poster thinks that men get angry at women because they're allowed to be sexy and feel desirable in ways that men aren't. Considering fetlife is a kink community, I didn't see any of that as I've seen men in dresses in that community. Though outside of it, I would think it's more of a case.

However, during that discussion, it seems the term "desirability" is discussed in a way that they mean compliment. When women interact with each other, they compliment each other such as "Omg you're soo sexy" "slay queen, you are gorgeous" "you have a nice fat ass" or anything of that variant, however most women understood these are just compliments and a way to make other women feel good, not always as an indicator that they wanna fuck. They don't accept this from men as they see it as an invitation to fuck (and I wouldn't blame the women here, our society has still conditioned men to their gender role and expectations of men to be the pursuer are still there.)

In terms of the term desirability being treated as a compliment, it's true men don't get that often as women do. As a man, I don't get compliments on how sexy or handsome I am. But I can count the rare times I do get them and even then, I personally saw it as nothing more than a compliment. I know that if I wanted to date a person, I would put in the effort to build that relationship and my potential partner would also put in that effort too if they want the same thing.

But there's a different kind of desirability I want to talk about. It's about the feeling of being wanted especially by women. We're taught that women send signals to show if she desires or wants someone or not, but many of these signals are very subtle. This is because men aren't brought up in that way and women expect us to just know these signals. Because of this, men sometimes do not feel desirable. What I mean here is men are expected to go up to the person, almost always be the first ones to express desire in a person and wanting to go out. I've very rarely had any woman seduce me, had any woman ask for my number, wanting to take me out. This is the desirability that men very much lack, and was a conversation not covered by that post.

Now women don't show these desires because of their safety. No, I'm not saying women don't express interest cuz of fear of being raped and murdered, that's ridiculous. What I am saying is that because society expects a lot from men and the abundance of PUA/TRP material out there, men are training themselves to pounce on every opportunity they get to experience intimacy but can come off as trying to getting some action and aggressive, leading to women closing themselves off and not wanting to 'tempt' a man into thinking she wants sex, so this understandably creates a double bind for both parties involved. So if she does express interest in him, there's a likelihood he'll latch onto that (tho you can tell me from your experience if this is true as that's just a theory in my head. I don't get approached by women like this a lot but maybe there's a guy out there that does.)

Because most women don't usually court guys and expect to be courted, guys feel like they have to give their efforts to make them feel good, but they themselves don't receive that same effort or even appreciation for trying. Anyways, lemme know what you guys think.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

I don't know much about Jordan Peterson. I had help from other figures before I discovered peterson personally. Aba and preach I've seen a lot of their channels and I like how nuanced they are with their takes. Of course I don't agree with all of them, but they were the first dudes who got me on the right mental track.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

I don't know much about Jordan Peterson. I had help from other figures before I discovered peterson personally. Aba and preach I've seen a lot of their channels and I like how nuanced they are with their takes. Of course I don't agree with all of them, but they were the first dudes who got me on the right mental track.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I'm starting to realize that even in the localized leftist communities we're involved, we need to start creating spaces where men can freely talk about these issues in a leftist environment. Unfortunately, we don't have much power to be open with it in our own communities due to how they'll react. Even more dangerous when they're brainwashed by ideas of men that make them automatically distrustful of men, even at the start.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)
  1. The patriarchy has never existed in north American history. Most of the gendered oppression have been caused by the monarchy, specifically coverture practices. We had kings and queens (both of whom who have equal powers to create laws before it got taken away). You're also using the apax fallacy to judge men as a whole by the actions of a few men and women in power who are in the minority. The only reason we consider it a patriarchy is due to patriarchy theory (most positions in power are held by men, therefore men oppress women) which is not only rooted in apax fallacy, it's designed to encourage misandry on a societal level.

  2. Feminism has never been about equality. Many 'proto-feminists' such as Mary Wollstonecraft who actually written books about the rights of women and men never called herself a feminist. It was academic feminists from 1848 and onwards who claimed them as such. The ideology of feminism where it classifies men as the oppressor class of women (thanks Elizabeth cady staton) and developing concepts such as the patriarchy theory (kate miller, andrea dworkin and the like) that IS misandry, yet it gaslight everyone into thinking it's about equality.

"Men saying "it's not fair" rings hollow when men have been oppressing women for millennia, and all women want is to be treated equally." Rich people in power have been oppressing everybody else for millennia of history, it just shows up differently based on gender. That's how these things have always been.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 4 points 1 year ago

@Aesthesiaphilia women think about safety all the time due to the paranoia they've been fed about men growing up. The tin men actually has a post about this that you can check out.

But yea when it comes to safety, generally speaking, most stats on crime incidents are less than 1% in the grand scheme of things. Even in those statistics, men are more likely to be killed than women on average (even if by other men) but they also deal with shame and humiliation if they open up about being abused by their gf/wives or even seen as the perpetrator, false allegations, etc. When you look at it this way, the world isn't inherently safe for us even if we are more physically developed. But let's just say the world isn't safe for anyone ever.

Another reason to point out that while teaching women to be very cautious of men, we're also teaching men that they have to make the first move all the time and if they don't continuously take action then they won't see any success (this treatment gets emphasized mostly by actions than words). Men then resort to pua/redpill that teaches them strategies and guess what? Now you have to deal with men who will approach you anytime anywhere and due to what you've been fed about men coupled with some not so pleasant experiences with a few men, the whole interactions become uncomfortable.

Also many of these movements will tell men to take questionable actions in the name of "masculinity", resulting in them stopping you mid-day, persisting with you, saying outlandish things etc. All of this comes from the expectation we still have of men to take initiative and be the one driving the interaction. If we actively started telling society not to put this role to men by default, none of this would be happening.

But most men out there aren't even doing the things I've described. The kind of men who are? Puas and psychopathic men (the types of men who don't or learned not to give af about this.)

This setup creates a self-fulfilling prophecy thats just gonna make things uncomfortable for both parties and only the thoughtless and inconsiderate would be the ones to succeed here.

Idk much about first world countries as I'm often told what it's like over there from a feminist lense, but now that I question the ideology, I'm now questioning how much we're told about them are actually true. I'll be doing some research here.

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

@Sewblon I don't think rating people is the best way to go and it actually introduces more problems than you think. When you take sexual strategies into consideration, some people will use this app to discredit a completely innocent person for the sake of revenge or keeping some type of leverage. Human nature and motivation can manifest in different ways and we need to be mindful of that

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago

@Woozy A person who isn't a misandrist nor a misogynist

[-] Mshuser@kbin.social 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

@RoquetteQueen By this logic, men should also be included and endorse women on apps like this as they deal with women who make false allegations against them (and don't give me this 2% nonsense as it doesn't include unreported incidents), are just a likely to be abusive to their bfs, and even rape them. But on all accounts, no gender should be doing this. We're not products for review, and treating men and women in this manner is very dehumanizing.

I never said men rape and murder women due to the expectation to make the first move, that's absolutely absurd. But this app claims to reward men for "good behaviour." This is very vague and it does tie into "men expected to initiate" as we still live in a society that expects this from us, including feminists. But if our innocent gesture of flirting is gonna make someone uncomfortable just from showing sexual interest alone (just expressing sexual interest in an appropriate manner, not inappropriate behaviour), then that potentially becomes sexual harassment.

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submitted 1 year ago by Mshuser@kbin.social to c/men@kbin.social

I came across a post that talked about this app. It's an app designed in the name of "female empowerment" by letting women endorse other guys they deem to be good to their other single friends.

And the guys on the app? They're immediately told to be on their "best behaviour" and if they do so, they'll earn rewards and points. This bit I find very condescending and not to mention misandric as it doesn't mention any toxic behaviour that women do. It also gives off the vibes of the "Toronto Unhinged list" or "Are we dating the same guy." list as well.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hulah You can check it out yourselves here.

Dating is already hard enough for men out there, and this app will only make it needlessly harder. I wouldn't be surprised if this app attracts only the feminist types as they're the ones screeching about safety (Note: due to the expectation of men to initiate most things in dating and sometimes resorting to toxic methods to do so, I can understand women's need to be safe in these interactions especially if a man can't handle rejection, but I think the scale of safety is being inflated when you have apps or list like these.)

What are your thoughts on it? Do you think this app is a great idea to keep women safe or is it just another discriminatory practice against men and males?

#men

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Mshuser

joined 1 year ago