Mshuser

I can see that. Even in bars, for example, if you're just out to grab dinner and go about your business, even you wouldn't want someone coming up to you and talking to you. I guess technically speaking, even street approaches aren't bad if you approach it properly. I've had a few instances where I've had great conversations with women on the street, I wouldn't recommend it though so maybe I just got lucky.

Those statistics from RAINN are a compilation of multiple NCVS studies consisting 9 years of data (it had years 2005-2014 listed there), whereas if you look at the NCVS (the study RAINN sources), it does list out statistics of incidents from both reported and unreported incidents, sure, but it also provides more information to look at. The total population in the US (as well as the total population of males and females) are listed there. The number of incidents that happened are a lot lower when you compare that to the general population, so the stats you're displaying right now are stats out of those incidents, not of the general population which was the point insta-stats were trying to make. Crime in general is very hard to measure as you have to look at multiple factors. However, most stats comes from what the victim reports, but many of these incidents could be done by the same perpetrator (or repeat offenders if you will).

On RAINN, it states that 433,648 Americans 12 years or older were sexually assaulted or rape per year. Now of course there are margin of error for these numbers since crime is very hard to measure but let's go with that number. The total population reported on the NCVS in 2021 are 279,188,570. If we do the math, then 433,648 / 279,188,570 (could be higher or lower as of this year) = 0.16% per year. It's likely the numbers presented on RAINN are coming from this 0.16%. The number of incidents that happened annually are roughly 4M (when these account for both men and women). Even in the FBI stats (another source RAINN looks at), the number of offenders are actually small compared to the number of victims on those incidents which would imply repeat offenders.

And both NCVS and NISVS shows that domestic violence, even severe, are 50/50 so this isn't a gendered issue.

Perusing and catcalling when done towards adults I'd say do come from male expectations, not when it's directed towards children (tho there have been times where girls who are the ages of 14-17 look like adults so confusion can come from there, it doesn't excuse the crimes tho) Even raping depending on how it's done could be due to male expectations. PUA/TRP do teach men many ways to get sex from women, even if it's through manipulation. And many of them have tips on how men can be "dominant" which I wouldn't be surprised if it does lead into rape.

if it was 100% “dating culture” that caused women to be afraid of men, then why are men aggressively perusing/catcalling/raping/grooming/etc children they aren’t supposed to date?

Maybe they reached a point where they're tired of putting themselves out there and went off the deep end from there. Notorious incels such as Elliot Rodger and Alek Minassian were both involved in PUA spaces before eventually reaching a point where they're out there killing people. And these are the extreme cases, most incels are not gonna reach this level. So I wouldn't be surprised if these men started off trying to go for grown women but then later on decided to target children instead for some power trip. I'm not saying this is a good thing and I think if you're intentionally going after children then this goes beyond male expectations and more of a mental issue with these men.

So all these numbers on RAINN are coming from that 0.16% victims per year, but the reality of women is that they have to deal with men coming onto them based on the 2 videos I shared? I'm not saying that dating culture (or male expectations) are 100% the culprit, but I think those situations specifically are due to male expectations society has on men. This doesn't just include men who are out there targeting children (which becomes a completely different issue once they start going for children), but men as a whole.

Women's dating coach Matthew Hussey actually has a chart explaining this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9ONWHXCsrk&ab_channel=BrandonJohnson. A small minority of men are out here doing creepy shit, the rest of the men do approach women but oftentimes wait for the right moment. But it doesn't change the fact we still expect men to do the heavy lifting initially.

I had to make another post on this due to character limit, but yea I personally think it's too risky putting out healthy dating advice for men as if we're still expecting them to do the heavy lifting, women are still gonna have to put up with us approaching them even at times when they don't want us to, which means we could indirectly be encouraging harassment in these cases. And considering dating has a of factors, it's quite risky to do that if men feel like they gotta make something happen or if they don't and relax a little, then nothing will happen. And if they mess up on it, the woman ends up being very uncomfortable or he may say or do something the wrong way that really messes up the interaction.

Let's say a woman decides to make the first move on a man given the current practices we have established. Because the average man doesn't get that much attention, he's gonna latch onto any positive affection given to him, making him clingly and needy which can make it unsafe for her. If the man is secure enough to handle a direct approach from her, fine, but many men feel lonely so they're not emotionally developed to handle that (which again I link this back to male expectations.).

Me personally, I don't think we can have a conversation about healthy practical dating advice if we're still encouraging practices that potentially put women in a position where she constantly has to deal with men approaching her which is where most harassment cases comes from and why they feel perpetually unsafe.

This is primarily the reason why I suggested we should get rid of expectations for men first. You get rid of the expectations, they don't feel pressured, which means some of the lengths they would go to they won't need to go that far anymore as they feel they get enough attention & validation, enough feeling of being desired, so they can take it easy. This shouldn't stop them from taking their shot, if they see someone they find attractive they should shoot their shot if they want something to happen, they just won't feel that intense pressure to be doing so all the time.

By being gentlemen about it. Be confident in our approach, but be respectful when turned down.

And understand that many women react the way they do because of a series of negative experiences they've had. It's tragic that bad men ruin it for the good ones. But that shouldn't mean the good ones should give up.

I'm all for being able to accept a 'no' and moving on but as I mentioned in my comments, most women aren't gonna outright say no and instead find socially acceptable ways to exit a conversation. Many guys aren't aware of what's really going on here and just end up confused. In the worst case scenario, they'll continue trying to talk to her cuz they felt they didn't 'try enough' or in the best case scenario, they just leave things alone and go back to doing their own thing.

Because there are so few places that teach positive and respectful ways of dating. I really think this is an issue primarily of education (by other men and by male communities, as well as parents). Most boys are left to their own devices when it comes to this, which means peer groups, social media, and Hollywood. Is it any wonder they don't learn healthy behaviours?

I agree with that as well but one question. Do you agree that women can and are able to make the first move? Cuz my position is I think they do, but many of them won't make that first move and often times expect men to do it. So even with places to teach positive and respectful ways of dating, that pressure for men is still going to be there and I don't think the side effects of it are going to be pretty. Cuz if they're the ones who are still expected to approach, they're inevitably gonna make women feel more uncomfortable even if they mean well. But we already got there in the first place because of what I've described. This was mainly the reason why I suggested getting rid of these expectations first. I can go on and explain in detail exactly what men should do to approach a woman, start a conversation with her, read the signs and move on. But it's not easy taking that much emotional toll from this many rejections (which if it builds up can lead to a point where they lash out at another rejection.), it's also not easy for men to gauge weather they are successful or not which can result in them reading situations wrong, coming off a more aggressive than intended, or even into searching for methods to achieve said results (even if done from immoral means). If men don't feel expected to live up to these standards, then they can follow these healthy dating advice without feeling those same pressures I was talking about, which could mean women won't have to put up with much aggressive creepy behaviour they see from men like they currently do now.

Many men are lost when it came to mainstream dating advice as it doesn't deliver results. The only dating advice that's delivering results now are advice that tie our self worth into arbitrary values i.e if you are a man and can make a lot of women have sex with you, then you're valuable. If you're a woman and you can withhold sex for 3 months and make him fall in love with you before the sex, then you're valuable. Adversarial dynamics.

On a side note, I actually do know some healthy yet practical dating sources that I've learned from so they are out there, but TRP/PUA/FDS material are in heavy abundance and not much channels that discuss the nuances in dating. But they're not gonna do much as long as men feel they have to bear the burden of doing the heavy lifting initially all the time.

I'm not saying it can't change, but don't build your dating strategy on expecting it to change. That's how guys end up forever alone.

I'm not talking about dating strategies here, I'm talking about expectations. I'm all for men to make the first move, to initiate flirting, and even to escalate to sex. Having the skill to do that is very valuable, but the expectations men face to even live up to that are gonna lead to some unfavourable outcomes for both men and women. In terms of meeting women, it can make men to be aggressive in getting a number just to build options, and will often try tricks to ensure a woman has sex with them in a somewhat manipulative kind of way. It makes it physically and emotionally unsafe for everybody involved. It wouldn't even matter if there are healthy alternatives out there if they're still expected to do the heavy lifting initially.

And healthy dating advice that's currently out there are geared towards masculine men and feminine women, leaving the more feminine men in the dust as being in a position to lead for these types of men is exhausting, speaking from experience myself, and finding women who are okay with being in that leading position is very rare.

Okay, so you're a more assertive woman then. It's not common I meet a woman like this. The majority of the women I've met and spoken to don't start conversations first, and many guys I know share that same story too. I think it's once in a while we'll meet someone who will outright tell us no but most of the women we try shooting our shot with won't be like that and you already know the reason why.

Also I didn't ask why they give an excuse so not sure why you brought that up.

Wouldn't the public space thing apply in the street as well, esp in well-populated areas on the street and not alleyways where there's no one around? Or maybe it depends which part of the street you're on.

As for the good faith thing, people are already mistrustful of men right from the get-go, so we're assumed to have bad intentions until we prove that we don't. This post covers that topic. https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/?img_index=1 but yea it def makes it harder for us.

How many men did you have hitting on you when you were 10 or 11? Cuz that guy sounded like a real pedo. 16 I can understand, I had instances where I entered into conversations with women and then I found out they were under 18 which made me wanna exit the convo and end it on a non-awkward note quickly.

Also, why does the creepy aggressive guys have to be about male entitlement? I don't think most guys actually feel entitled to your time, but maybe it feels like that as that's mostly the kind of guy you're exposed to in that situation, whereas most non-entitled guys don't even try (or they did but have a lot of nerves in them that they end up saying the wrong things?). I think you're downplaying the effect these expectations have on men. A lot of dating advice for men is geared towards them being the pursuer and leading the interaction. In some instances, they're being encouraged to shoot their shot with a woman on the street (which has the potential to turn into street harassment if not handled properly.). Men are told repeatedly they have to play a numbers game, that they're inevitably are gonna make a woman feel uncomfortable (and unsafe) as we can't control how she would feel in those situations. Mainstream advice isn't giving men the proper tools they need to meet expectations, which is the huge reason they turn to the redpill. I'll share this video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVdu74BYTwQ&ab_channel=AbaNPreach

So rather than just slapping 'male entitlement' onto this issue, I think it's worth considering why men are going to these lengths in the first place. Media has been encouraging mainstream dating advice such as be yourself, work on yourself, the right person will find you, just be friends, etc. It didn't stop men from going to the redpill and living with the problems we currently have right now as they feel they've been doing that their whole life and nothing really happens here.

It’s becomes creepy/scary when the guy doesn’t take no for an answer, or becomes aggressive when you say no.

Most women won't be saying no and for good reason. They will just try to excuse themselves out of the interaction, or give out a fake number to temporarily satisfy him until they get away from the situation or anything along those lines. Very rarely they'll say no because dudes will then overreact to being rejected and sometimes act violent (no doubt this comes from the ideas implanted in their heads by TRP/PUA). Many guys, when women exit the convo without actually saying 'no', end up confused what happened in those interactions. They don't know if they should've asked for a number or not, or if doing so would make women feel uncomfortable as maybe she thought it was just a harmless conversation as they're trying to be careful not to make anything sound sexual at the beginning. But the guys who do, they already reached a point where they don't care about what she thinks.

Also, why couldn't you start a conversation with a guy you find attractive in those exact same situations?

Also, the whole know your audience thing comes into play too. If I’m in a bar, or waiting in line, or idk any number of other things it’s one thing. But if I’m clearly in a hurry, or in the middle of doing something like loading my car full of groceries. Not now. Seriously.

This one I agree with but you can still feel unsafe in a bar or waiting in line if you don't particularly want to talk to a guy. Obviously if you're in a hurry and have your hands full with heavy bags then that's a no. It still doesn't change my point though.

One of the biggest reasons “men are scary” is that I KNOW how much stronger a man is, than I am. I’d put up a hell of a fight, if it ever came down to it, but I won’t win on power or speed (and I’m a runner). Then add in the experiences we all have, with creepy dudes, at best, and downright belonging in jail dudes at worst.

Then what's the point of having courtship rules if it means being in a situation with a man that's much stronger than you if he decides to become aggressive at some point? Couldn't you make the first move while having escape options? I know women plan escape routes before going on dates with men, could you not do the same here? For dudes that belong in jail, most men are not gonna be like this. The experiences you have with creepy men I guarantee comes with their facing these exact expectations I was talking about earlier. I genuinely don't think most men would feel the need to do this if we actively told society not to make them conform to those expectations.

What? No. Women don’t feel safe around men because many men, when interacting with women, are fucking creeps.

How do you think they became creepy? I don't think that comes out of nowhere. Or do you think it's just innate that we're creepy at some point?

Even that interaction you had with that man was very frightening I understand that. It still doesn't take away from the original point I made. I'm also sure he also faces these expectations many men face even in today's society. It doesn't excuse what he did though.

The problem is that this dude, and guys in general who take the view point he espouses, and that you espouse here, is that they don’t see women as people to be friends with, they see us as objects to make them happy.

Where in my post did I even imply we don't see women as people?

A woman does not need to approach a man. You have nothing we require. We can exist perfectly fine on our own. That doesn’t mean men suddenly need to spend their every waking moment of interaction with a woman trying to get into her pants.

You wanna talk about being treated as a human being but you won't reciprocate the same. How do you think these men feel at the thought of going up to someone they find attractive and talk to them? If you understand how nerve-wracking it is for men then you wouldn't be expecting them to make the first move that easily. They don't need to approach a woman, that doesn't mean they don't have sexual needs they need to fulfill, women too. Men would feel desired if women also make the first move and do it very obviously.

Also, let's not kid ourselves here. If you're attracted to men in general, there are men out there that you do find attractive. That's reason enough for you to approach him.

Many women I've spoken to expect men to make the first move, and many men tried giving shy men tips on how to make the first move and let her see him as "the man" (a language I hate so much). When I suggest they go up to him and tell him they like him, they prefer to send signals and hope he picks them up instead.

Overall, I can tell from this comment you didn't read a single word I've written on my post. Nowhere did I suggest men should treat women as goalposts, in fact, I didn't even give any dating advice here at all.

Feminism (I'm talking about ideology) hasn't said it's fucked up we're taught to be afraid of men. If anything, they contributed more to that with their campaigns. Yes, women have been wary of men for a long time, it didn't mean feminist (esp OG feminists) didn't play a part in making that worse.

It's the fact that too many men have been raised in a way that they make women feel unsafe.

Men weren't raised this way by general society. It actually raises men to not bother women and leave them alone (mostly a good thing until said guy expresses romantic interest in getting to know a woman, in which society says "if you like her, go up to her and let her know how you feel" how is he supposed to do that while following the above?) Guys make women feel unsafe due to their own mental issues, being raised by misogynists or traditionalists, etc. But in cases outside of it, guys are generally respectful of women and don't bother them. Once they resort to PUA/TRP, this is where they're likely to start learning this stuff and eventually make women feel unsafe following a misguided path to romantic success. This is where even good guys start making them feel uncomfortable. Tying in with step 2, our solution would be to figure out why exactly the guys are going to PUA/TRP, and what other alternative can we offer them that A) helps them take control of their dating lives and B) not make women feel uncomfortable. This would include asking questions like should we encourage approaching, expressing interest, anytime anywhere or not? And if we do, how do we do it to make sure all parties are satisfied?

As for your step 3, I generally agree with you. It's not just replacing problematic beliefs with new ones. There also needs to be practicality for a man or a woman to shoot their shot clearly yet ethically. We should encourage them that it's okay to make the first move, that it's okay to ask someone you find attractive out, it's okay to go after what you want, even if it means just casual sex, and develop guidelines to help get those while keeping everyone safe.

The main problem is the last two - that your value isn't defined by your success with women. THAT'S the worldview that needs to change, though I make no claim as to what society's telling men in this regard. Obviously a PUA is going to tell you the opposite, since they're selling you something. It's the same thing as a makeup company telling women they're ugly - it's good for business.

Hold up. Why don't you see the first one as one of the problems?

The Hallmark stereotype of the guy continuing to pursue a woman after she's rejected him (and then eventually getting her) is NOT a good man. Being aggressive is NOT being a good man.

We're not talking about media tho. The examples you're talking about have largely been in the 80s media. Today's media is nothing like this as it mostly portrays starting out as friends and hoping for something more to just happen between the characters. This is a very passive approach and not at all productive.

Many of your elaborations on what a "good man" is are just tips on how to live life authentically. What we consider "good" is heavily subjective. What you consider is good, someone else might consider standards apart from yours to be good. So just call these tips for what it really is, living authentically.

PUA/TRP are an easy answer because they are working within society's toxic worldview that we want to change.

I gotta break this down. Society as it stands doesn't share the viewpoint that men have to be aggressive, macho, at least not on the surface. Only PUA/TRP are teaching them that. Mainstream society tells them to just have confidence, to not bother them and leave them alone, just be friends with them, but they also expect men to be the initiators in talking to women at the same time. They assume them to just know how to deal with women which is a very unrealistic expectation to have of men and boys. PUA/TRP doesn't work because it works with society's 'toxic worldview' (as mainstream society views dating and relationships as something that just happens by luck), it works because it offers practicality that the mainstream failed to provide. Tips that they can use now and see results early on. That is the appeal and why it's rising.

Society says that "you don't need to conform yourself to gender roles" and by actions they show women don't need to, but by those same actions, they show men need to. And how do they do this? There's an over-emphasis on telling men to leave them alone and never bother them or they risk being a creep or making her feel uncomfortable. Society also says that "women can also make the first move" but let's be real here. Over 90% of women don't make the first move, and even when they do, their first move is sending out subtle signals which are hard to pick up, and then some of them wonder why those guys they tried 'hitting on' don't like them. They'd have to go up to a guy and say "Hey, I like you and wanna go out with you" just for them to get the message.

That's another good point too, but I don't think we can deny the role it can have. I'm not saying every guy who learned from TRP won't take no for an answer, but what I am saying is with their ideology there's only so much rejection you can take up to a point. What happens if you get rejected 1000 times and you combine that with an ideology that tells you if she turned you down, it means you're not high value, desirable, or some shit like that. This will eat at their self-esteem and in some cases lash out and try other toxic tactics i.e "Why you got an attitude." "Do you know how many girls I get." "Fuck you, you ain't even that hot anyways."

"They're operating under a worldview that's outdated an unrealistic" buddy is this really the takeaway?? It's not outdated if that expectation is still there. Also you brought up abusive men. Men don't need to go out approaching women and then become abusive from that. It's about gaining and maintaining control, which wasn't what I was talking about. I'm sorry to hear what happened to your friend tho.

"Society has not told us how to be good men" are u fking kidding me?? Society been telling us how to be "good men" and men are still going to PUA/TRP. This isn't about society encouraging bad behaviour in men, theyre not out here doing that. it's about putting gendered expectations on them in modern times and leaving them in the dust to figure shit out on their own. I'm saying we need to be teaching Society not to do that so men dont feel the pressure and have their self worth tied to sexual success like society makes it out to be. How in the world did you get my words mixed up?

As for the general tips you've laid out I got no problem with them except "learn about feminism" I did and I find out it wasn't about equality between men and women, but female superiority under the disguise of equality. No way in hell I'm supporting that misandrist ideology.

As for the guy thinking woman is 'leading him on'. Guys don't get compliments since they're expected to go up to her than the other way around. So when they do get a compliment from women, those emotions can be intense. So when he finds out she never meant anything more than that, it flips his world. Though in this case he could learn to manage his emotions so he can receive compliments well.