Mshuser

I heard their experiences before and I don't think it's unreasonable for them to act this way. I do think there's a vicious cycle at play that's making it happen. We've done a lot to free women from their traditional role, but we didn't do the same for men. Instead, we just said "oh since we freed women from their oppressive role, then it should obviously apply to men as well" not realizing that they had strong advocacy for the former but not the latter, which lead to society still having men conform to their expected gender role in the modern times.

We tell guys to be sensible and not bother them randomly, yet we also tell them that if they like a girl, they need to tell her. They're taught that if they don't do something, another guy will and he'd lost out on his chance. We set up dynamics where guys are told (either by society's words or actions) that if he doesn't take action and make the approach, then he won't get a date, laid, or a relationship. So they feel the pressure to take action. Because they feel this pressure, and mainstream society has just given them passive advice, they turn to alternative communities which will give them the practicality. That being the PUA/TRP. So they get practible dating tips, but also getting a lot of toxic ideology about women as well. It also doesn't help that there are some women out there referring to other guys saying "They're good with women" (I hate this phrase a lot actually) so hearing those words only reaffirms his perceived failures as a mate.

Because of what they're taught by PUA/TRP, they react poorly to simple rejections from women due to society telling them that their value is tied to how successful they are sexually. "She rejected you because she saw you as low value" "She likes a confident masculine man, not a weak feminine beta" "You're a nice guy, any woman would be lucky enough to have you" "She rejected you, you need rizz bro" "You're too nice and she didn't feel that confidence from you, you need to be more aggressive". It also doesn't help when these messages get reinforced when they see other guys who are genuinely confident and masculine at their core with a woman who enthusiastically enjoys his company. They are gonna associated this experience with the ideology they've been taught.

Guy gets mad a you for rejecting him? He interprets this as her saying he's not alpha or valuable enough for her (Thanks Redpill). Following her to a store is very reprehensible, but I'd also say it links back to the expectations as well. Someone grabs your butt at a concert? Maybe that guy thinks that's how you be an alpha and show her you're a 'sexual being' so she doesn't see you as a platonic friend. This doesn't excuse the guys behaviour, many of them are very reprehensible.

This isn't new. PUA/TRP likely doesn't exist in third-world countries, but gender roles are very much active there, and I do hear stories of guys attacking women over rejecting them.

Nobody is blaming women for the expectations, they weren't the ones who set it up. Maybe some women helped set it up, just like men did. But I think as long as we as a society don't actively fight to free men from the role of the pursuer, they're gonna feel the pressure to take action, and it'll result in more women being uncomfortable with guys approaching them, not being able to take rejection well.

Now you are right that most of the things you've listed don't rise to crimes. But there are a lot of women who have said they're afriad of men due to not wanting to be raped and murdered, which while that fear is very valid, it isn't statistically common as I mentioned in the previous replies, which never meant you can't exercise caution. However, with the situations you've laid out, they're very common for women to experience them and it doesn't need to rise to a level of a crime, which doesn't make it any less uncomfortable for them anyways.

This explanation isn't me trying to excuse these guys behaviour. Because they've learned it, they need to unlearn these behaviours to ensure we make women feel safe, I am all for that. But we also have to remember guys were put in a position where they feel they have to learn and do this stuff, so to ensure we don't have a large number of guys going up to make women feel uncomfortable (which still happens), we need to start telling society not to conform men to these roles and not make them feel pressured to be the pursuer all the time, tying his success to that, and finding self-worth through other means. And after we've reached a place where women and men are free from their gender role, come up with rules for a more safer courtship, allowing men and women to take initiative with the people they're interested in.

P.S I had a much more thought out reply before the redirection delete my entire message, so if this one comes off differently here, I do apologize. I was trying to remember things I've written out that time before it got deleted.

The DOJ also puts out BJS when it comes to crime statistics. I did find a 2022 study that's female victim specific showing they were more likely to be killed by an intimate partner in 2021, but the incidents are very small when you compare the number of female victims reported on an ncvs study of that same year. The number of female victims in NCVS is approx 4 mil, intimate partner violence incidents were 400k (this number includes both male and female victims), but the female specific study had 4k female victims of ipv related homicide. So they exist.

I think using a psychologist and specialist would be a great idea in this case. Though how credible do you think it is? Cuz we're mostly going based off of a psychologist and specialist evaluation rather than concrete evidence. Or maybe psychology has an evaluation process of its own for it to be as credible as concrete evidence idk much about that bit honestly. But it is a good idea considering most SA incidents are usually done by someone known to the victim.

Can you point out where I put scare quotes on feminism? There's a lot of conflation with criticizing feminism with criticizing women which isn't the case. Feminism is an ideology which you can criticize, doesn't conflate with criticizing women. People already lump anyone who criticizes feminism as misogynist cus they buy into the idea that feminism is about equality, but it also promotes female empowerment which touches on the female identity, of course most people especially women are gonna identify with it (the same way men identify with the redpill movement as it promotes male empowerment). Redpill is already being criticized as a misogynistic hate group as it should be, but nobody questions the feminist ideology cuz most of them will push back hard against anyone who questions it, which is why this sub exists. The OG feminists came up with the patriarchy theory, modified the definition of toxic masculinty to make it correlate with general male behaviour. When you put those together, questioning that is almost always gonna make people think you're a misogynist. Once I actually questioned the patriarchy theory and did my own research, I found out it largely never even existed yet people believe we live in it. Same thing with the feminist ideology. The feminist ideology when it started wasn't egalitarian at all, it was actually very misandrist in the way it talked about men.

It does feel like it sometimes. But that too is also something that men deal with as well, especially when feminist have dismissed our fears of false allegations using the 2% conviction, even though that too causes very serious trauma. I've even seen counter articles saying they got nothing to worry about, but 2% only represent cases that have been resolved, not the reported yet unresolved cases nor does is count the unreported incidents. By this logic, should men start treating women the way women have been treating men? Should men start viewing every woman as a potential liar who's out to accuse him of rape and SA? There's a reason men are going mgtow and avoiding interaction with women altogether. This is also something I don't agree with as it's just going to heighten the fear of a demographic.

Having statistics of victims killed in IPV would certainly be very valuable information (tho I think that would be classified under severe abuse, maybe that category needs to be broken down).

A societal push we need to establish is to actively send a message to society not to conform men to the male gender role. We've done a lot for women not to be confined in their own gender role, but then we just think "well if women aren't confined to their gender role then obviously men aren't as well" but there's a larger focus on the former than the latter, causing male stereotype to be strong even in the modern age. This is very important as because men trying to fulfill their gender role are likely the ones to go out approaching women on the street and trying their luck. I remember watching a street harassment video where a man explains why he does it, which was along the lines of showing her he's the man, that you gotta show her persistence, etc. This kind of thinking is not inate to any man. They're being taught by PUA/TRP that they need to do these things to reach the pinaccle of masculinity. But keep in mind PUA/TRP is rising cuz we as a society have never actively fought for men to step away from their gender roles, we just left them on their own to "they should figure out that also applies to them". This premise doesn't cover the more serious crimes such as murder, rape or SA I think in those cases serious mental issues are involved. But if we're talking about a woman's day to day experience with dealing with men coming up to her, then this is caused by society still telling men they gotta fulfill their gender role, thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And a note about police. I think everyone has to remember is that police are a 3rd party. They need to collect all information first before they could do anything. Unfortunately, we humans have a natural tendency to get spooked during very stressful events that we can forget to document it and ensure the perpetrator gets bought to the police. Add in the fact that criminals are smart enough to cover their tracks to not get caught, and you can see why bringing perps to the police is hard. A lack of concrete information usually makes their job harder. Sure we can go to the police and report the incident, but for them to actually pursue the case further, you'd have to be able to capture not only the perpetrator appearance and information, but also where they escaped to and if they dropped a trail.

What about my advice bit is patronizing?

I see that.

What would be your suggestion for being less combative? I have a tendency to over-explain my position so the context doesn't get misconstrued but perhaps there's a better way of having a discussion.

It's not just about the sex though, it's about being treated as less than human due to an over-heightened fear of men. I referenced her video to mostly address the last point and how what I've said would lead to this. I don't care if a woman is not down to have sex with me that's her choice.

Stalking does exist. I didn't include as it's not part of the normal social context I was painting earlier. Stalking happens when someone who you don't know or have little familiarity with is following you, so there's no way to include it nor excuse it. And then there's stalking from someone who you've known before but now is a stranger to you which is a much more difficult situation to deal with.

I specified those situations because A) these are the types of situations where potential predators are likely to take advantage and B) I've also acknowledge many of these are just suggestions from me as a man. These are also suggestions mentioned by women I have spoken with. Are they perfect? No. Do we need better solutions? Absolutely, we do. I also understand that these are very difficult situations to deal with, which is why even the suggestions I'm giving aren't always bullet-proof when they do happen (and same goes for men who experience false allegations or abuse as well, you can record it and back it up, doesn't mean it's not a difficult situation to be in), but it doesn't justify the fear of almost every guy out there which I have seen time and time again. I could've done a better job of not making dealing with those situations sound easy peasy while making my point.

The title is not me asking anything, it's a title of the video I linked to. Caitlyn V is the one who came up with it, not me.

Of course safety is a very legitimate concern, but it's been something that's been used to justify very distant behaviour and misandric treatment of men, especially when you look at statistics where it's only a very few men (who are repeat offenders btw) that are out there committing them (both reported and unreported incidents), yet people use these statistics to act as if a large majority of men are out there committing crimes which isn't true. There are situations where safety does apply, but when it's used to act as if every man is a potential offender in every normal interaction, that's when it becomes a problem.

For example, if a man were to come up to you and say hi, express interest or compliment you (in any context that isn't an isolated alleyway mind you), and your first instinct is to be distant from him, treat him as if all he wants is sex, or might murder or rape you in an initial meet, then that is overboard. Crime stats from nisvs and bjs shows they happen roughly 10% of the time in most incidents. The high likelihood of sex crimes happening is with someone they are familiar with. Still not large enough to treat as if every friend or romantic interest out there is gonna do it when you factor in the general male population.

Also, men make up majority of homicide victims even at the hands of other men, but even when we're talking about gendered violence in intimate settings, the rates of gender violence from female to male isn't that far apart from male to female yet that never gets talked about at all. Then there's also false allegations which are common enough yet it's still not legally recognized as a crime. Not enough men come out to share their stories due to public ridicule and even being seen as the bad guy, nor are men's issues being taken seriously by academia to be given a deeper look apart from government stats. Safety goes both ways my guy. But even with stats like this, you have to be careful not to apply this to all men and women (when you actually factor in the total male & female population, you find the number of offenders out there in a general context is less than 1% for both genders). Just because most crime offenders are men doesn't mean most men are out here committing crimes. I will link this post for you to see.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CrQRpqUtbDz/

If you're talking about just talking to her, expressing interest, flirting, getting her contact information etc especially in public social environments, you're less likely to get assaulted in there. I'd go as far as to say that women have met men when they cold approach them when it was still a thing years ago and their relationships are just fine. What safety measures can you take here? Well if you're talking to a man at a bar, don't let him buy you a drink to avoid having it drugged, which doesn't mean you're not interested as you're still there talking to him. Likewise, if you meet a man on a street, keep your interactions in public and never engage him if there's a considerable distance between you and the public so your cries for help will be heard in case he tries something (tho meeting someone on the street is not something I would advice as safety concerns are pretty high here). Or if you fear he won't take rejection well, just give him a number even a fake one and gtfo of there. Or you just don't wanna talk to him or deal with another guy. You don't have to engage him at all if all you want to do is cut it short and leave, completely understandable. In all these interactions, make sure you have an open exit if you want out.

Going on a date with him? Inform your friends and keep your dates in the eye of public and exert your boundaries in case he wants to take you private. Afriad he might rape you when you guys get intimate? Set a recorder to record the interaction, let your friends know. In both cases where things get bad, pepper spray or attacking him in the genital area. Of course all of these are suggestion and the women themselves know these situations well enough to prepare for them. My point is you can engage openly with men while at the same time keeping your safety in mind.

Point is you can factor what could happen in these situations where you could be harmed in anyway, then come up with solutions to help counter them, but at the same time not need to fear of every man and live in perpetual fear of them constantly.

Why do you say that?

I respect your choice. This is moreso for people that want to have some form of control over their sex lives.

You're right it shouldn't. Men can absolutely find happiness and contentment through other men's. My point wasn't even about compliments, it was about addressing the other side of desirability that the original post talks about. Women do give out compliments to men as nothing more than a compliment, but how many of them take an active role in making a man feel wanted, making him feel like he's being seduced and pursued by her? This is the bit I was talking about.

@hotpotato138 I do believe toxic masculinity is a real thing, but not the 2013 definition of it where feminist added misogyny and homophobia in there. The definition of toxic masculinity I'm talking about is the mythopoetic men's movement definition and they were on the right path (of course with some corrections to include other cultures way of masculinity). Their goal was to find healthy masculinity, but with the feminist defined definition, it almost seems like they want to remove a lot of masculinity which I do have a problem with.

The patriarchy is a societal structure in which society is built by men, power roles are strictly held by men, and it's at the benefit of men, right? If this is the definition, then someone needs to tell her that patriarchy never even existed at least not in North American societies. I absolutely hate it when they blame gender problems on a patriarchy and all the other bs around it that just makes men feel remorseful for the men in the past. The way patriarchy is being used by them nowadays, they might as well just blame the problems on the matrix for crying out loud.

100% agree with this. I have a personal qualifier. Whenever I talk to a woman and I get body language signals that indicate she doesn't want to talk to me or isn't interested in this conversation, or maybe she's just shy. What I would do is bring up the matter in an empathetic way and basically verbally gauge if she wants to talk or not. Now we're not entitled to a response to any question we ask and that's totally fine, but I believe approaching it this way qualifies women who verbalize their comfort with us rather than expecting us to read into the situation. So if she doesn't respond to that question the minute we bring it up, that tells us what we need to know about her communication style, and whether we as men want to engage with that or not.

As for the gentler guy situation, I written a recent article with solutions that I believe would help the gentler guy out. Lemme know what you think.

The only signal I consider to be valid is consent for sex

Yup, and I'd also add if you're out her doing say cold approaches, then reading signals also applies here as well. Other than that, if we're talking about women showing interest, she needs to use their words cuz chances are, I may not even notice her if she's sending them, making me more likely to go for someone I am attracted to. It's only natural.

That is nonsense

Yea sometimes I get the feeling when they talk about men's issues, it's done in a way it talks about men's toxic behaviour being cause by not being more like women or some shit like that