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Enlightened Centrists
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this post was submitted on 02 May 2024
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If you really want to change the party, JOIN it, convince like-minded people to join, and start changing it from the inside.
You know, like the way Trump and MAGA changed the Republicans.
The DNC has made it clear they're not interested in moving to the left and that they're perfectly happy gradually meandering further right. Sure, 30 million Democrats might see it differently but the people voting aren't actually in charge.
I've been doing that for 20 years. Between that and spit in my hand at least the hand with spit has something to show for the effort.
MAGA had the support of moderate Republicans.
Leftists and progressives do not have the support of moderate and liberals. They made this clear in the 2020 primaries. Anyone to the left of Biden was too radical. Liberals and moderates made it clear again yesterday when they celebrated police breaking up the protestors. When Biden was asked if the protests have made him reevaluate his policies in Israel he simply said "No".
There's no room for us in the Democrat party so I'll be voting 3rd party.
Voting third party for president won't solve that problem, it will just help, in your case, a more right wing POTUS get into office, one who has proven to be especially dangerous to our democracy. It's a dumb idea because it's counter productive to your goals and virtually useless.
If you want better representation you'll have to work from the ground up by getting people into office that will move to end fptp voting.
You're trying to play the game with the rules you want it to have, not with the rules it actually has.
I'm aware I have no way of solving this problem. Never claimed otherwise.
Even if progressives and leftists managed to get a halfway decent candidate through the primaries all that would happen is that liberals and moderates would be the ones who vote Republican, vote 3rd party or don't show up. We're at an impasse.
Actually I think that's what you're doing. The rules that it has are I get to choose who I vote for. Not you.
Then it makes even less sense to vote for a third party because you know it doesn't do anything.
I'm not taking about the primary, i'm talking about how the vote is done. If we can get rid of fptp voting system, and replace it with something like star voting, then people are more free to vote for who they want instead of using reason and voting strategically. This is the way to increase the chances of getting more liberal people elected.
By no stretch of the imagination did I even remotely suggest I get to choose who you vote for.
I can stay home if that would make you feel better?
Never going to happen with the kind of candidates who make it through the primaries.
Ok then accept I'm going to vote 3rd party and stop trying to convince me to do something else.
This is the second bad faith argument you've made. Why?
Which is why I said you have to work from the ground up.
I'm defending being rational and reasonable. Even if it won't convince you, it might stop some other person who reads this from irrationally acting counter productive to their interests.
There is no course of action which is productive to our interests.
As an aside, hypothetically, if you had a choice between:
Which would you choose? You can only pick one and there is no third option in this purely hypothetical situation.
If you honestly believe this, then the only rational move is to use your vote strategically to increase the chances of the viable candidate - who most closely aligns with your belief - getting elected. Effectively throwing your vote away on an unviable candidate increases the chances of the candidate less like you will win.
Play the game you're playing, not the one you wish you were.
And to answer your question, definitely 2. Although I believe i'm missing something.
I am. I hope to demonstrate the Democrat party is non-viable when it refuses to make material compromises with leftists and progressives.
You admit it's not a way forward, but then argue as if it is. I don't follow.
It's a hail mary that will likely fail.
Who are you even voting for?
Maybe 3rd party but probably just a write in.
Chances are way higher that you get someone through the primaries on a major ticket and they win the election. Probably nearly infinitely so.
What are you basing this on?
You said earlier that even if progressives got someone through on the dem ticket, that they would still lose the general election because liberals would vote republican.
And you need it explained why writing someone in has even less of a shot?
You need to re-read my goal of writing someone in. Yes, getting someone decent through the primaries and hoping liberals support them in the general has less of a shot than demonstrating the Democrat party is non-viable in it's current state by writing in or voting 3rd party.
What's the ultimate goal of showing the Democrat party is non-viable?
Getting liberals and moderates to move out from the center.
Why?
To eliminate "nothing will fundamentally change" as a choice at the polls and force them to choose significantly rightward or significantly leftward candidates.
Not a bad faith argument, and characterizing it as that is disingenuous.
They're telling you: the ways in which they are willing to participate in the system is to vote for someone they actually care about, or to let the system run itself into the ground. It's kindof akin to "live free or die".
If the mentality of "live free or die" does not sound reasonable to you, you are welcome to pursue your own brand of reason. Clearly, they will pursue theirs.
The issue at hand is that the system stops working when people vote based on perceived power. Yes, we should also work to change the system. But the other person is not at all alone in having little faith in the system - and really, that's what's holding the system up, mostly - the faith it constantly breaks.
It is absolutely 100% bad faith because they knew exactly what I meant and "staying home" is effectively the same. It was even couched in dismissiveness with the "if that makes you feel better" part.
But to defend it like this, maybe you actually can't see right through it. Or, maybe you just think bad faith arguments are good arguments.
The dismissiveness and "if that makes you feel better" is necessary because you're getting hot and bothered about what they're doing in their life. It's not a bad-faith argument - they are simply telling you the other option they are willing to take. Which they know, I know, you know, and everybody who reads this thread knows is not your preferred outcome, but it clearly demonstrates that that is more of an option to them than toeing the party line in a broken system that they lack faith in.
Regardless of what you consider it, I consider it a reasonable argument and tells you where they stand.
Regardless of the reason for it, it was a bad faith argument, because it doesn't change anything about the point I made. And you still have not addressed this.
"they know, I know, you know, and everybody who reads this thread knows" where they stand. This isn't hard to grasp. What I'm pointing out is that their response to it is irrational. We both agree that we would prefer it be different. The difference between us is I understand the game we are playing, and understand I should be using my vote with that in mind. The other poster is just going to throw it away due to vanity, as actually voting third party does absolutely nothing to solve anything.
Their response is not irrational. They feel unrepresented by the system, so they would rather let it fall to pieces and fight, if it comes to that.
The difference is that you wish to win, following the rules of the game. They want to change the game. Perhaps your method will work, perhaps it won't. But letting it escalate will definitely bring change. Perhaps it will be change they end up hating. Perhaps it'll be what they want. Either way, things change. Implicit abuses of authority are hard to fight unless you have a solid bead on the issues. Explicit abuses of authority at least give you a target - and if things have gotten to the point of war, you can actually shoot at that target.
In any case, rationality is often the enemy of action. A thousand people waiting until they have the definitively right direction end up doing little. A thousand people with a rough idea of what they want, and willing to take action, win, lose, or draw, will get things done.
This relates to the whole "reality-based community" issue.
Some of us are the people the other side wants dead. Taking the gamble on that change is literally risking our lives. I'd much rather a broken government that won't oppress me to a functional one that will, and anyone who'd argue against that is arguing for betting my life on a positive change
They are likely risking their own lives, too, whether or not they know it. But even of they are not, it is their prerogative to vote or not to vote, or to vote for whom they wish, regardless of your opinion, and even if that takes humanity in a direction that means we will have to fight for our freedom again. The cost of freedom has always been paid in blood. Force must be applied to those who attempt to force us, and only to the point that we are freed from their influence, lest we act as they do, and be bound by the consequences of making the same poor decisions.
It's weird watching the Democrats give the government additional powers, and watching the Republicans use those powers for power's sake. And the Democrats seem shocked every time, and then when they have power, and the option to relinquish that power for both sides, they do not.
We have not ceased and will not cease being in a world of tooth and claw, and of animal necessity. If you think you're better than that, you'll overreach, and get bitten. ..and that's the democrats and republicans - the overreach, and the bite, back and forth in different ways, ongoing, cycling like yin and yang until we have enough cultural experience to naturally do better - if we make it that far. ..and that involves reaching across the aisle, and understanding your 'enemy' well enough that you 'get' it, on a visceral level.
But, most people don't do that, because, y'know. Filthy centrists that may as well be the other party, and all. Fortunately, being genuinely rooted in centrist concepts has benefits far beyond the political game.
Except I was feeling them out for what is their ultimate goal, and at no point did they say anything about the whole system falling apart. You are trying to rationalize their actions, but it is, frankly, just irrational. But even if it were "let the whole system fall apart" that's also irrational because, chances are, it's not them that is going to come out on top. It will continue to be people who currently have the power.
Not mutually exclusive. I understand the game I am playing, and play with those rules, and act rationally within those rules. I understand that you don't change this by voting third party for president. I know that might feel good, like you are doing something, making your voice heard. But it's just pissing in the wind. If one wants to change this, it comes from the floor up, and it's something I do push locally as well.
We do know the way forward, it's working from the ground up. It's getting our election system changed. No single president can change this, which is exactly why protesting the presidential election in this way is pointless.
I've already said what i have to say. ..I doubt you've convinced them, but it's good you have a passion and are pressing that direction. I understand that you think their take is irrational. I don't think their take is irrational, though it's not how I view things. Same as with yours.
In any case, it's good you have a passion for a way forward, and it sounds like you're willing to pursue it. You'll still have to accept the existence of those who don't think like you, and who don't agree with you, and wish to live their lives their own way. You either make room for them, or you fight them - and it seems like you have other, more important battles, which have a higher likelihood of success than trying to stop someone from thinking the way they do.
Goodnight, and goodbye - say your final piece, and make it good for those who come after, since that's your real audience. Above all, though, I hope life is interesting and enjoyable for you.