Do you believe that ACAB? (lemmygrad.ml)

submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by multitotal@lemmygrad.ml to c/asklemmygrad@lemmygrad.ml

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Personally, I believe that A CAB. Yes, all cops are bastards, no exceptions. Yet I have met people who think that cops in socialist countries aren't bastards.

My reasoning is that it is a position of power over your fellow citizens/countrymen/people and only bastards would be attracted to such positions. While a person may go in with "good intentions", invariably they will be at some point in their career be expected to do something "not good": cover up for a colleague, arrest someone for law they don't agree with, beat somebody up, and so on. If they do it and remain a cop, well they are a bastard, no matter how many old ladies they help cross the street or whatever.

Let's also not pretend that a full communist utopia where every single law/regulation/rule is fair is possible in our lifetimes (or at all likely), there'll always be people who will want to abuse their power and take control, cops are an easily bought section of society that makes it possible for them. Historically, cops have always sided with the aristocracy/bourgeoisie/land-owners/those with money.

Your thoughts?

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[-] multitotal@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 5 months ago

They tend to divide up the duties of cops and split them among different organizations. Like… the traffic cop doesn’t carry a gun and instead calls for help when they see something go down.

That's true for a lot of Western capitalist/imperialist countries too.

There are usually fewer cops per capita in socialist-run countries.

The less cops there are, the more socialist a country is?

you don’t need cops

Agreed.

If you go to Cuba you will find cops just standing around, hanging out, not intimidating anyone.

I'm sure you can see that in Palau and other Pacific Island nations, and a few of the Caribbean ones, too. Does that mean those countries are socialist? Cops being "chill" is more a result of the culture of the country they're in, rather than the main ideology of the state.

[-] Barx@hexbear.net 10 points 5 months ago

That's true for a lot of Western capitalist/imperialist countries too.

In capitalist countries they tend to wear different uniforms but are part of the same department. Sometimes just one big organization for the whole country, even! There's usually only one division and it's not very common - mental health first responders vs. cops.

The less cops there are, the more socialist a country is?

The reverse. Cops protect the interests of private property and as part of this address the contradictions of capitalism in favor of capital. Both are decreased in countries run by socialists.

I'm sure you can see that in Palau and other Pacific Island nations, and a few of the Caribbean ones, too.

Why are you sure?

Does that mean those countries are socialist?

This is the second such odd question you've asked. It doesn't follow from what I've said. I think you might be arguing with someone in your head rather than me.

Cops being "chill" is more a result of the culture of the country they're in, rather than the main ideology of the state.

Culture is also a product of material conditions and deeper political economic forces. But for cops in particular do you really think it's just "culture" and not the combination of these things?

The laws they are expected to enforce, written for private property interests.
The people they are expected to fight with, e.g. informal policing (gang violence) and cartels vs. the occasional drunk guys.
How well they are paid and by what metrics they are compensated.
Who advocates for their paychecks and who does not.
Their relationships with the downstream "justice" system.
Whether they are armed.
Whether they live within the community vs. apart from it.
Whether the societies in which they live create more or fewer crisis situations, e.g. serious untreated drug addiction, mugging, unwanted cohabitation.

These things are all shaped by the political economic forces at work. They cannot be overcome by "culture" by itself, they will instead redefine a culture and retell its stories in its own favor. For example, the convenient revisionism of Christian positions on profiting from debt. The "culture" was pretty clear that it wasn't okay but the political economy of Rome depended on it. Guess which one won.

[-] multitotal@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 5 months ago

Cops protect the interests of private property and as part of this address the contradictions of capitalism in favor of capital. Both are decreased in countries run by socialists.

Yes. And can you guarantee the police won't turn on the State if they are promised higher pay and more power in the new capitalist state after the socialist one is torn down? That's what happened in pretty much every ex-socialist state.

This is the second such odd question you’ve asked. It doesn’t follow from what I’ve said.

You said there are fewer cops per capita in socialist states. I'm saying that's not a metric by which you can tell whether a country is socialist or not, and that it often has nothing to do with the state being socialist. Countries like Palau have also fewer cops per capita, yet that doesn't mean that those countries are socialist.

Why are you sure?

Because small island nations rarely have a big problem with "crime" as large countries with big cities.

the combination of these things

Majority of those factors that would create "bad" cops could exist in socialist states, too. Change of a society has to be total, you can't just put a red star on the same capitalist cops and call it a day. A police force borne out of capitalism has to be abolished in favour of something else. I can guess and imagine what that something else might be, but I can't know for certain.

The only country on the planet without a capitalist-style police force is the DPRK. That's because they have a politically educated populace that is also largely part of the defense forces of their country. They do not need "cops".

[-] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 5 months ago

Yes. And can you guarantee the police won’t turn on the State if they are promised higher pay and more power in the new capitalist state after the socialist one is torn down? That’s what happened in pretty much every ex-socialist state.

china model. economic dominance and providing such a good deal to everyone its never even considered

Because small island nations rarely have a big problem with “crime” as large countries with big cities.

Is Haiti not real to you?

The only country on the planet without a capitalist-style police force is the DPRK. That’s because they have a politically educated populace that is also largely part of the defense forces of their country. They do not need “cops”.

The DPRK has cops....

Find me a society with anything close to what you have previously described.

[-] multitotal@lemmygrad.ml -3 points 5 months ago

Is Haiti not real to you?

Haiti isn't a small "island nation". Haiti is half of the island Hispaniola, the other half is the Dominican Republic. Dominica is an example of an "island nation".

The DPRK has cops…

Do they? Or do they have a local "militia"?

Find me a society with anything close to what you have previously described.

The Soviet Union. I corrected myself in other posts, I was wrong to name them as an example of counter-revolutionary cops. Lenin abolished the police in the Soviet Union and replaced them with local "militias". The difference was that these militia people didn't have country-wide powers, they were tasked with their own city. This means that they couldn't be shipped from one city to the next to "restore order".

[-] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 5 months ago

Haiti isn’t a small “island nation”. Haiti is half of the island Hispaniola, the other half is the Dominican Republic. Dominica is an example of an “island nation”.

Its all relative, if you keep moving the goalposts till only criteria that you have defined is met, of course you're going to be right. For most people, Haiti is a small island nation; also we cant take micro-examples and expect them to work in countries with billions of people.

Do they? Or do they have a local “militia”?

Yes, they have police.

The difference was that these militia people didn’t have country-wide powers, they were tasked with their own city. This means that they couldn’t be shipped from one city to the next to “restore order”.

Again just putting a different name tag on the police and giving them smaller juristictions doesnt make them not police, and isnt what ACAB represents, which is deleting the police outright, not just renaming them and giving them a different coat of paint.

[-] multitotal@lemmygrad.ml -2 points 5 months ago

For most people, Haiti is a small island nation;

That's not how it works. Just because "most people" think something that doesn't make it true. An island nation is a country that comprises a whole island, or several islands. Iceland is an island nation, for example.

also we cant take micro-examples

They're not "micro-examples". Iceland has 176 cops per 100.000 inhabitants, while the European Union average is around 333. China has some 142. Does that mean Iceland is close to being socialist? Or is Iceland more socialist than the EU?

countries with billions of people.

What countries with billionS of people? China and India have about 1.5 billion each, and they're exceptions.

Again just putting a different name tag on the police and giving them smaller juristictions doesnt make them not police

Someone should have told Lenin that.

what ACAB represents

ACAB represents that "all cops are bastards", I don't think anything is implied about what should replace them.

[-] ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 5 months ago

What countries with billionS of people? China and India have about 1.5 billion each, and they’re exceptions.

Im being hyperbolic, consider my framing of 'billions' to just mean 'a country with aprox a billion+ people'

ACAB represents that “all cops are bastards”, I don’t think anything is implied about what should replace them.

Its an anarchist strain of thought and it has a whole connation behind it with the term, usually tied to just burning down the police force as it stands.

Someone should have told Lenin that.

No need, he surely recongised the need to have a police force to defend the citizens of the revolution from bad actors and yeeted the police of the monarchy/tsar into the shadow realm.

They’re not “micro-examples”. Iceland has 176 cops per 100.000 inhabitants, while the European Union average is around 333. China has some 142. Does that mean Iceland is close to being socialist? Or is Iceland more socialist than the EU?

What seperates the two is ideology, obviously.

That’s not how it works. Just because “most people” think something that doesn’t make it true. An island nation is a country that comprises a whole island, or several islands. Iceland is an island nation, for example.

Point taken, its half a island nation.

[-] multitotal@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 5 months ago

Im being hyperbolic, consider my framing of ‘billions’ to just mean ‘a country with aprox a billion+ people’

But that's only 2 countries out of ~190. They are exceptions.

Its an anarchist strain of thought and it has a whole connation behind it with the term,

Lenin the anarchist.

he surely recongised the need to have a police force to defend the citizens of the revolution from bad actors

That's two different things. "Police" and "a force to defend the citizens of the revolution" are two different things. That's my whole point. In the Soviet Union you had the local militia

and then you had the NKVD.

So a "police" is a force than combines the two: "local policing" (stopping bar fights, getting drunk people off the street, investigating domestic violence) and then "state polcing" (fighting the enemies of the state). If you have one police with those wide powers, then that's a recipe for disaster.