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this post was submitted on 28 Jul 2024
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No no no no NO!
This is some guilt-tripping, gaslighting, deflecting DARVO bullshit, and I won’t have it.
Bigots do not become bigots because of their exposure to “others”. When those of us who are “others” [refuse to tolerate the intolerance of others] (out of principle or justifiable self-defense) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), their frustration and their lashing-out as a result is not our fault. Nobody can be held responsible for another individual’s lack of emotional self-control.
When people act out with violence, motivated by hate, fear, and ignorance, they are to blame— never the victims.
Someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another, are two separate things.
Family members going down toxic rabbit holes as a response to someone close to them coming out, is just that - a response to someone close to them coming out. It is quite literally cause and effect.
That doesn’t mean that the family member’s bigotry is the person’s problem though, nor should they feel any sense of blame whatsoever.
I’m not talking about causing effect. What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet. The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord, and the family member who bravely chose to live as their own self is not to blame for that.
One thing may have led to the other, but that does not mean that one thing inherits responsibility or blame for the other.
t’s not so simple as an assumed reaction as you imply: it’s not one object striking another, transferring energy, and causing the next object to move. This other family member chooses hate and bigotry and then to act on those ideologies and feelings. That is not the same as the simple thing you reference.
Like I said, I completely agree with this. And,
while true, that chain of events was started when they, bravely, came out. It’s not their problem, nor should they feel any guilt whatsoever, as there’s nothing that they did wrong. But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.
That’s why I say that there’s a difference between someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another. The article simply states that she saw his radicalism start when she came out. Not that her coming out was somehow wrong. She’s literally just stating her truth. Her coming out started him on this path. And, that’s not her fault.
I would argue it isn't direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.
I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people's bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn't actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that's probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it's what it sounded like from the outside)
That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.
Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.
but then why blame the people that are saying "uhm you really shouldn't be joining a cult (bigotry) that harms everyone" instead of the cult leaders (the bigoted mouthpieces pushing harmful rhetoric)?
it's like saying that if your family never made claims the earth is round you would have never looked up anything related to it and wouldn't have become a flat earther.
idk maybe it's just that as LGBTQ+ i don't like to think that if i were to come out it would cause my family to turn into bigots (which just makes me never want to bring it up 🤷)
Huh? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your comment, but I’m not blaming the people who criticize cults. Lol I’m one of those people, fuck cults. Maga in particular.
And as for your example, it’s hard to make a cause and effect argument when the cause is something that didn’t happen.
A better example would be if someone told someone else that the earth is round, so that second person decided to look into it. Through that, they stumbled upon the flat earth theory, and eventually got sucked into it.
In that example, the person only became a flat earther because the other person told them the world is round. Is that the second person’s fault? Are they to blame? Absolutely not, they were just stating a fact. But the reality is that that event led this other person into becoming a flat earther. That’s just what happened.
And genuinely I’m sorry, I hope your family, if you decide to come out, accepts and loves you for you. I’ve sadly known quite a few people who have had to deal with fallout from that, especially those living in more southern states. It’s heartbreaking. I’ve also known people whose family’s love them to death and barely bat an eye. So whatever you choose, choose what you need, what makes you happiest, whatever that may be.
And in case my point wasn’t clear, or it sounds like I’m saying something else, let me be clearer: It is absolutely not their fault. Not in the slightest. Their family’s toxic bs is their family’s alone, it’s not their burden to bare.
I think we're both describing the same flat earth argument - still my point is that while there is a correlation between the coming out and the subsequent radicalization, it would be overly simplistic to claim direct causation. The coming out event acted as a catalyst that revealed and perhaps accelerated pre-existing tendencies in the family member who became radicalized, but it did not cause the bigotry itself.
thank you for the kind words :)
Considering one simply wouldn’t have happened without the other, I have to disagree. I agree that maybe these people may have a predisposition to radicalization, but the fact remains that said predisposition was only exploited because of the events prior.
Bigotry, in some ways sadly, isn’t something that one is born with. It’s something that people develop, whether it’s from their parents, environment, or they’re radicalized over time as they explore toxic rabbit holes online. Whatever the case, these people at one point were just like anyone else. I’ve seen it happen to genuine, loving, progressive people firsthand. It’s tragic.
So, at least the way I see it, a family member learning that someone close to them has come out, being ignorant of it and looking into it online, and then finding themselves in radical spaces, isn’t an outlandish idea. I’d wager that a lot of radicals probably began their descent from an innocent enough place, only to get deeper and deeper until it was far too late.
And of course! Regardless of any of this, I genuinely wish you all the best.
"The husband wouldn't have beaten his wife if she didn't burn dinner."
Saying that the husband wouldn’t have beaten her if they hadn’t gotten married is a fact tho.
That doesn’t make it her fault for marrying him, she’s not responsible for his abuse. But the fact that it’s happening due to previous events is simply how the world works.
I was making a point about violence, not a fucking wedding.
So you were making a point that had zero to do with my comment?
My comment was about how events inherently lead to other events. But that it doesn’t mean that anyone is to blame.
I can’t tell if you’re purposefully being obtuse or genuinely don’t understand what my comment was saying, or what my reply to yours implied.
You replied to my post while missing the point of the post. I pointed that out.
Also, your point was meaningless and irrelevant other than trying to excuse away victim blaming. A wife burning dinner might be the catalyst for the husband to respond, but reasonable husbands wouldn't beat her. They would react in some other way.
Burning dinner didn't cause a beating any more than Musk's daughter being trans caused him to be conservative. He was just a piece of shit and his daughter being trans highlighted that shittiness. She didn't cause it.
Are you high? You didn’t post this, and you’re the one who replied to me first.
I’ve literally said multiple times that nobody is to blame, I’m genuinely starting to think you’re trolling or just looking to get into an argument for some reason. I’ve probably said that nobody should feel any guilt whatsoever, that they did nothing wrong, at least three separate times now.
You have been excusing victim blaming by saying it is just cause and effect from your first post. That is excusing victim blaming in the same way as the article.
I’m not excusing anything, I’m saying that in reality events lead to other events. This is just how things work, it isn’t an opinion or a slight, it’s objective fact.
Anyways, please reread the end of my last comment to you. I really can’t spell out any clearer that the victim is in no way to blame.
Museums are the place to display nazi propaganda. Individuals who display nazi propaganda are nazis or at least fine with promoting nazi propaganda.
I guess they could have disclaimers for context like a museum that would mean they are trying to educate viewers on how horrible the nazis were, but I doubt it. They should probably leave it to the museums.
First of all, what you said was not stated in the article, and it should have been, so they could at least pretend they weren't victim blaming. As it is, they can't even pretend, they're stuck with people like you apologizing for their worthless drivel.
Second, you're speculating that the family members went down toxic rabbit holes as a response. I think it's just as likely that they already went down those rabbit holes, but others didn't know about it, because they didn't have occasion to proclaim their feelings. Which is to say, the damage had already been done, but you didn't know it.
I agree that it should’ve been stated in the article, I’m not apologizing for them not doing so. I’m just reiterating what his daughter’s perception is, and that the reality of that isn’t “wrong”, as it’s entirely possible that his descent, if it was a descent, happened as a result.
Once again, this is literally how she saw things play out. That’s all the information we have, anything else is speculation, including the notion that he was like, born a bigot. Unfortunately these toxic ideas aren’t born with people, they’re infected with them at some point. And like I’ve said, I’ve personally witnessed it happen to genuinely terrific people.
So unless we all plan on ignoring Vivian’s own words, I don’t think there’s much more that can be said. And regardless, none of this was my point anyway. My point was literally that the title of the article isn’t wrong, and that something being caused by another can be possible without anyone being at fault for it.
OP is an idiot. That's like saying exposure to anything doesn't precipitate a response. It does.
His response or change may be directly caused by his experiences. We also have no idea what their interactions were.
I agree, but I don’t think OP is an idiot, imo it’s a totally valid response to have. I mean think of all the people that have come out, had their families lose their minds, and then be directly blamed for it.
Seeing a title like this and assuming that it’s assigning blame, even when its Vivian herself just stating the chain of events, is understandable when this is such a problem in the community.
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