527
Borders
(lemmy.dbzer0.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 28 Oct 2024
527 points (88.4% liked)
Lefty Memes
4550 readers
183 users here now
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
I have never once heard and have not been able to imagine an explanation of how not having borders could possibly work.
Notice how there is no border between your town and the next one? Same, but on a larger scale.
But there is...
There's the border, then there's The Border. One is a line drawn on a map for administrative purposes, sometimes comes with its own road sign. The other is a checkpoint where your documents are handed over and you're at the mercy of the border authority. Usually doesn't happen between towns, but those are pretty popular in places like Soviet Germany, apartheid South Africa and the West Bank for example.
Internal border control is common in East Asia. India, China, North Korea, Bhutan, Malaysia and Vietnam have it with varying degrees of strictness.
Yes, but the next town over is protected by the same military, is under almost exactly the same laws, is covered by essentially the same tax system, and so-on.
If you're suggesting eliminating borders once there's one world government covering every country and a planetwide tax system, then sure. Until then, it seems like it would be a disaster.
You can just keep going where the border would be.
Simple. In the past there is no "border". You are someone from Frankfurt who came to Paris to set up business and there was no question asked.
In the past that was true of certain classes, other classes were tied to the land and forbidden from leaving their manor lord's land.
A example that’s not borderlessness, but still interesting, was the Behind the Bastards episode on Harlan Crow which talked about how there was seasonal migration of people from Mexico into the US during peak agricultural seasons. They would return to Mexico in the winter, but the introduction of a hard border incentivized people to remain in the US.
It seems the hardening the border lead to the exact thing Harlan Crow and the other racist trash were trying to fight, increased immigration.
All immigration is a net positive to the economy in a number of different ways, and most of "problems" are caused by material conditions created by having classes of citizens versus non citizens. The US basically had open borders for much of its history and that's a big reason why it became such an industrial powerhouse.
The original idea behind physical border control has more to do with espionage and sabotage than restricting immigration.
What do you mean "how it works"? What function would 'having no borders' serve?
Ask the EU.
They have a lot of borders.
They're similar to the US under the Articles of Confederation. Separate states with free passage among them. Going from France to Germany is effectively the same as going from Georgia to Tennessee.
Free passage, but limited rights. In the US, you could move to a state with "easier" welfare programs, and collect them... whereas in the EU (Schengen), you're not allowed to stay longer than 90 days at a time without having a job/being able to support yourself.
Exactly, the US also used to have serious borders, now you can travel and work anywhere you want. EU is more interesting in this case because it's more recent and it consists of national states.
EU has borders though, it just functions like the United States does (in a republican wet dream) in that it's a conglomerate of a bunch of "states". ask the UK fucks that get kicked out of Spain now. No borders inside the territory but there's absolutely borders on the outside.
Yes. It used to be a bunch of more or less national states mosty at war with each other though. The fact Schengen was created is pretty mind blowing to me.
Which drowns refugees seeking asylum in the Mediterranean? That EU?
Well, they used to kill each other not so long ago. Look at the 20th century (or any previous one) - they hated each other. They've opened lots of borders since then and it was a gradual process with lots of negotiations and conditions. I'm sure you don't think it's possible to open a border without proper preparation.