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[-] TrickDacy@lemmy.world 10 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

So just because shitty men exist, we're supposed to say "welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist"?

I have found pushing back is useless. People are just waiting for you to be a horrible "fragile man" instead of just realizing that being accurate in who you blame for being shitty matters. So yeah I wouldn't really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.

You can just know the shitty generalizers are bigoted, and hope it's a phase for them. I certainly have never seen any value in either supporting that generalization or fighting against it.

People on the Internet love thinking they're better than you and that you're scum. The only way I know to deal with it is just by accepting it

[-] erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 41 points 3 weeks ago

This definitely misses the power imbalance of punching down vs up. If someone genuinely believes all men are "scum," yeah, that's prejudiced. However, there is a big difference between a group that has less power in society pushing up against the class that has more power or oppresses them and the reverse. The idea that "y group is (insert pejorative)" and "x group is (insert pejorative)" are equally bigoted statements assumes that x and y groups are equal in social power. Statements like "men are trash" or equivalent don't necessarily represent an individual's true opinion of all men, but a general pushing back against a group with more power, many individuals of which attempt to exercise their perceived privilege over women.

Women that say "all men are trash" or similar might not be thinking with this level of introspection and subtlety, but it's a subconscious reaction to their position as a group with less power. They rarely hold that on a personal level against every individual man, unless they've been deeply hurt. I have experienced things that make it harder for me to trust men. My friends have experienced things that make it harder to trust men. I do not think every man is evil. When you see the damage around you on societal levels, see the people calling for your rights to be taken away, see how they treat you like an object or property because of who you are, and you see it in the lives of many many people like you, it creates a resentment of the group that is responsible.

I am not suggesting that there are no women that take advantage of men. I am not suggesting that men cannot be abused. I am not suggesting that it's okay to make men feel responsible for the actions of people that share only a gender with them, nothing else. However, I am explaining why women might feel hurt or disempowered enough to push back against men in general, and why "men are trash" and "women are trash" (though far more often, the phrase when targeted at women takes a sexual connotation: whores, etc) are not equivalent statements. Both the women that have been hurt and the men that feel hurt by the byproduct of their resentment are victims of the patriarchy. Until everyone, regardless of gender, holds the same societal power, there will always be people of all groups being hurt by the imbalance.

TLDR: Don't resent the women who are a product of their environment saying "men are trash," resent the patriarchy that hurts men and women alike.

[-] erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone 23 points 3 weeks ago

Additionally, statements like men are trash can hurt other marginalized groups. I've heard "men are trash" be followed or countered with "except trans men." This is transphobic. I'd like to make it very clear that "men are trash" is an unjustly prejudiced statement, but it is one that is a product of a broken system. See: ACAB.

[-] natecox@programming.dev 20 points 3 weeks ago

Thanks for saving me the keystrokes here, I appreciate you (for real, which I’m having to say because text and… you know… how online people are).

[-] natecox@programming.dev 10 points 3 weeks ago

So just because shitty men exist, we're supposed to say "welp generalizing us is fair because technically men like this exist"?

Yep.

See the sibling reply from @erin@lemmy.blahaj.zone here for a great explanation about how power dynamics work on this topic, but also:

So yeah I wouldn't really conclude that if you see one example of someone being disgusting then you have to allow yourself to be falsely aligned with them.

One example? Really? That’s horse shit and you know it. Misogynistic behavior is a rampant, massive problem everywhere; online and in real life.

this post was submitted on 29 Nov 2024
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