this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
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You think Ukraine should make concessions with the country that invaded them?
Yes because they cannot win on the battlefield and have lost an enormous amount of lives. Just because Russia is adversary to the US does not mean we should send 100,000’s of young people to the grave. (Meanwhile safe over in the states we wave Ukrainian flags and call them heroes as we leave them dead or mangled)
So yes reaching a compromise even if Russia was the aggressor is in the best interest of the people left in Ukraine.
Would you rather use our weaponry and intelligence and money to prolong this war for 10 years … just to have the same outcome but 20x the number of casualties?
I’m not in the states, thanks for assuming that though.
Sorry for the assumption but my comment still stands in terms of what is a realistic beneficial outcome for Ukraine at this point? Clearly China, India (probably others) are helping Russia keep its ammo stocks and munitions filled.
Other than a negotiated settlement we can have either world war 3 with NATO intervening … or we can just drag this out for 5-10 years at an enormous cost and literally 100,000’s of dead Ukrainians.
Also not in the states and hey getting sick of explaining that Ukraine is the one who gets to make that call. And they have made it clear they will fight on. This conflict might have some years left but seeing as the (probably others) is north korea I think most know how it ends.
Oh and China, India are bending russia over right now laughing and saying "cheap oil go burrrrrrr"
How do you reach a compromise and guarantee Russia doesn’t invade again?
They don't, they just get ready to clutch their pearls and say "well, I never..." when it happens again. These people are from the same stock that let Hitler rise to power, and thought appeasement was the best way to deal with aggressive authoritarians. Anything short of full liberation of Ukraine's territory only encourages Russian belligerence.
You want to save lives? You make it clear to Russia this kind of shit will only leave them bloodied and empty handed.
Yes. That's literally how peace negotiations work. The alternative, winning the war, precludes the necessity of peace negotiations. All negotiations in the history of negotiations are negotiations between aggressor and agressee.
For the sake of peace, yes, I think they should be willing to make concessions. That's how negotiations work.
If you refuse to offer anything you aren't really negotiating. You're just issuing demands with no exchange.
Oh yeah that worked so well for them in 1997 and 2014. Did people forget that peace negotiations have happened before and russia has broken the agreement every time?
Why would Ukraine or anyone for that matter take anything the russian federation says as not a lie? Also I think that in this case it would be stupid for Ukraine to allow russia any ability to regroup.
NATO broke the 1997 pact when it bombed Yugoslavia in 1999, in violation of the UN Charter.
In 2014 Ukraine's legitimate government was overthrown by the Euromaidan coup.
Before you screech your revisionist history at me, answer this: are you willing to fight this war until no one is left?
NATO is not Ukraine (yet), that makes about as much sense as say China getting to invade Iran because the UAE bombed north korea.
I would think popular uprisings like in 2014 against rich oligarch rule would be more up your alley. Really though that also does not work as much of an excuse to invade another nation state.
I think my screeching is quite pleasant compared to whatever mental gymnastics are needed to eat what you are selling.
Oh and as I said above, Ukraine gets to make the call on when they are willing to stop fighting. Not myself, not you.
"Popular uprisings"
i.e. western backed color revolution
Ukraine isn't allowed to make that call. If they do, America will stop supporting them.
Yes, clearly the mass protests and large scale political movement was just a ruse by the US, because as we all know somehow everything ever is always the US.
The mass protests were legitimate (though fueled by Western media to some extent), but the government buckling was absolutely not. There was a lot more going on then just "people protest -> government collapses" lol
Yeah they are called "elections" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_presidential_election
Viktor Yanukovych, the legitimately elected president who had not resigned and had not been impeached, was unconstitutionally removed from power before that because he was forced to flee the country and parliament saw an opportunity to ~~make a lot of money~~ cozy up to the EU with a trade pact. Those elections had no constitutional basis, but we don't care about that because Russia bad.
Well russia could not be that bad, at least not to Viktor. https://korrespondent.net/ukraine/politics/3312452-yanukovych-kupyl-dom-v-barvykhe-za-52-mln-rossyiskyi-polytyk
Thing is the only thing Putin wants is the eradication of all Ukraine.
This is a war of annihilation. There are no concessions.
Have a starting point from a man much more intelligent than I: https://youtu.be/mMZYKxgc9TE
(And a video he did 9 years ago: https://youtu.be/A2nklduvThs)
Ridiculous.
Care to elaborate?
Here's what I'm getting from their comments:
"US bad, Russia good. I love Putin and anything that I can pretend is a communist nation, despite not even being slightly close"
I'm pretty sure Russia wants the majority Russian-speaking portions of Ukraine.
Russia wants to destroy Ukraine. Putin doesn't even believe Ukraine should be a nation.
I hear Putin eats small children and doesn't believe in washing his hands!
I love making things up. It's so fun!
You and I are not the same.
do you ever stop to think about how you would fare in Russia with a username like that? these are the people you think should be negotiated with
Oh I'd probably be dead or worse.
That doesn't make endless war a good thing.
If someone came into your country and started to rape, kill and kidnap your people would you roll over and give them whatever they wanted to stop doing that?
Maybe we should break into their home and see if they want to start peace negotiations. Because nobody calls the police when that happens. Give us half your stuff and we will leave.
If the alternative was that they would rape, kill, and kidnap my people for the next 20 years without end?
I'm not willing to fight this war to the last Ukrainian.
Say they do negotiate peace, what do they do next time Russia wants to invade?
Give more up?
It is possible to include certain guarantees within a treaty to make it painful for either side to break it, or to make breaking it extremely difficult. That's what Ukraine would have to demand from Russia - some kind of leverage or collateral to guarantee the peace holds.
Ukraine would have to trust Russia would comply and they haven’t historically.
No, trust is for fools. They need some kind of mutually assured destruction so that neither side can ever betray the peace treaty.
You are Ukrainian then? Because I think they are the only ones who get to make that call.
The conflict is not occurring in a vacuum. They can pretend that they are the only ones who can make that decision, but without the West sending ridiculous amounts of money in arms and support, they wouldn't be in a position to make any decision. As long as they're entirely dependent on others, they can't monopolize the decision making here.
See you have an issue in that argument. Without support (as that is what I assume would be the threat here) Ukraine has very clearly stated that it would fight on. You seem to forget that the west just lost a war in Afghanistan, who had no real foreign support.
All that cutting support off would do would drag this conflict out and make it mostly partisan action.
Whose money are they sending over?