this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2025
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I suffer from the paradox of tolerance whereby those who want a tolerant society must not tolerate intolerance. Those that are intolerant must be removed from society if you are to truly achieve tolerance.
I guess I'm fascist now too..
The paradox is the result of the liberalist idea of some universal right to tolerance; that there's some inherent moral or pragmatic obligation for us to just tolerate everyone and everything possible.
There's no moral nor pragmatic benefit to tolerating neo-nazis in a community. We don't need some mental gymanastical paradox to excuse that fact. Being a neo-nazi is a personal choice to be harmful antisocial scum, comparable to child abusers and billionaires, and the abstract liberalist idea that they automatically deserve freedom, liberty or tolerance in the first place is pointless and dangerous.
The biggest issue with this is that people that think like this tend to throw accusations like “neo-Nazi” out like lollies, at everyone that they disagree with about on certain things that are in no way “nazi-esque”.
Disliking the “welcome to country” does not make you a neo-Nazi. It is a divisive thing. It’s not some centuries old tradition, it was invented by Ernie Dingo in like the 90s. Many, many people think it’s completely pointless and irrelevant, and they’re entitled to that opinion just like you’re entitled to your opinion that it makes them racist. It doesn’t mean you’re automatically right and they’re wrong though.
In this specific situation - welcome to country at an ANZAC day ceremony - it is extremely debatable about its use. The ANZACs, 99% of who were white non-indigenous people, died defending this country. “Welcoming” their relatives to the very country is rightly seen as incredibly disrespectful by many. Without those ANZACs giving their life to defend this country that is being claimed is not theirs, the aboriginals might have been eradicated off the face of the earth.
Saying this is not racist. It’s not “neo-Nazi” views. You claim it is as an excuse to be intolerant towards those people. No matter how you try to sugar coat it, you are being intolerant.
Wow that there is a lot of misinformation about Welcome to country. Take 2 minutes to read the Wikipedia and report back.
It’s definitely not misinformation, and Wikipedia is not a source. Try again, this time with an actual argument instead of essentially “nuh uh”.
If you’re going to make claims of “misinformation” you need to elaborate.
"It’s not some centuries old tradition, it was invented by Ernie Dingo in like the 90s" Misinformation, it is a modern take on traditional ceremony here is an investigation
Could you clarify your interpretation of the word of 'Country' in Welcome to Country? I could be reading your statement wrong but it appears you are defining it as the Country of Australia. As this is an incorrect interpretation in this context, I directed you to the Wikipedia which defines it better than anything I could type.
Except these are views held by self identitifed neo-nazis. Just because non-nazis also hold that view, doesn't change they fact they are neo-nazi views.
There will be no tolerance of nazis or their offensive beliefs here. To that end I've revoked your mod role. Further antagonism will result in a ban. I'm not interested in discussing this. If you continue to trolling while trying to give the impression of good faith discussion, you'll be banned.
That the view is also held by “neo Nazis” does not mean it is a neo-Nazi view. If neo-Nazis believe the earth is round does that make anyone that thinks the earth is round a neo-Nazi? No.
I have no tolerance for Nazis. Not every belief that a Nazi holds is an offensive belief, as I just showed. Saying that a welcome to country at the Anzac ceremony is disrespectful to the ANZACs who fought and died for this country is NOT a Nazi belief. That’s absolutely ridiculous.
Where’s this list of neo-Nazi beliefs btw? I was going to make a thread on the NRL channel about how the season and teams are looking so far, but I think I’d better check what the official Neo-Nazi position is on the Broncos performances before I do. I wonder if the neo-Nazis believe that the instant sin-bin for high shots is ruining games regularly, because if so I’d better not say that one, wouldn’t want to be banned for holding a neo-Nazi belief. Which hot chips do the neo-Nazis believe are the best? I’m a red rooster kinda guy, but I don’t want to be a neo-Nazi if that’s what their official position is as well.
Revoking my mod permission over this is beyond an abuse of power. Ban away.
Saw this comment on Facebook about AoCs in Early Childhood Education which sums up my opinion on this well.
The ANZAC ceremony was held on Country. Country is the land, sky, waterways, and all the cultural knowledge and practices connected to it. Acknowledgment of Countries and Welcome to Countries (look up the differences between the two) are a matter of respect.
It’s just not necessary in my and many other people’s opinion, especially to do every day or at every single event. It is especially not necessary at an ANZAC ceremony that is about remembering the ultimate sacrifice that those men and women made fighting for this country - our country.
Doing it every day at things like daycare is a whole other issue. While you say it teaches respect, it can be argued that it is furthering racial divide, instilling into people who’s families have lived here for hundreds of years that it’s not their country and that they need to ask for permission to be here.
It’s becoming more and more divisive precisely because it is being pushed and pushed and pushed in ever increasing numbers. Next it’ll have to be performed every morning at every McDonald’s when they open. After the “voice” referendum was voted down in a significant way, it seems the losing side has doubled down on trying to push through their agenda that was clearly not popular, and people are rightly getting fed up.
An Acknowledgement of Country is not saying Australia isn't everyone's country, it's just acknowledging the Traditional Owners of the land we're on! It's not saying we don't have permission to be here as people with settler-colonial backgrounds, it's just an ACKNOWLEDGEMENT.
Many people who grew up before the 2000s never even learnt about our history. We learn about history so we don't fuck up like people in the past did, and commit violent atrocities against groups of people. It doesn't have to be everywhere, as most places only do it during important events or gatherings (I agree, it doesn't have to happen EVERY single time people gather). A simple statement or ceremony performed by an Elder, is the least we can do.
I don’t think they actually wanted an answer. They’re just fabricating a rationale to keep stamping on people they see as lesser.
Why do we need to acknowledge the “traditional owners” at every football match or work training seminar exactly? The company I work at spends an insane amount of money paying for AoC/WtC dozens of times per week. It’s beyond ridiculous.
There is no need to ever be welcomed or acknowledge it more than once. It’s turned into a massive financial grift.
And no matter what you say, constantly having to be “welcomed“ to the place that we were born, our parents were born, and their parents were born, absolutely is being treated as if we don’t belong here and need their permission.
Again - what need is there for me to be “welcomed” to the city I was born and grew up in even once a month? Why do I have to regularly acknowledge that people lived here before me? I’m not where I am because of anything they did.
You seem to care a lot about this...
Have you considered that the same could be said about the national anthem... It's mine I know it why do I have to listen at every event to the same shit song
You not liking the welcome doesn't change that fact that it's just polite to do it... I personally don't get a lot from them but they also don't hurt me in any way so why would I care if they are done..
You aren't the main character and it's not about you
Why are you listening to the national anthem before every meeting, presentation and football match?
The hecklers in this case were straight-up neo-Nazis.
From the ABC article (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-04-25/melbourne-anzac-day-welcome-to-country-hecklers/105215124)
This quote cited on his Wikipedia page (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Hersant):
A heckler was. Singular. He wasn’t the only one, and he definitely isn’t the only one who found it incredibly disrespectful and insulting. One person doing X being a Y does not make everyone doing X a Y.
At another Anzac ceremony the self proclaimed “tolerant” people were shouting “free Palestine”. What are your thoughts on that?
Also this “the ABC understands a group of far right were present” thing is just typical media garbage, unverified and put there purely to stoke the outrage flames from their target audience. Also they likely consider anyone who voted “no” to the voice “far right”, so it’s a meaningless biased comment made to get a reaction.
These people literally call themselves neo-nazis.
No-one here is pretending that disagreeing with a position makes someone a Nazi. No-one here is throwing that label around. We're talking about a specific political organisation who demand new members read Mein Kampf and Siege, imitate the language and symbolism of the historical NSDAP, and seek similar political policies. This action was an act of political propaganda for their White Nationalist organisation, in line with their ideological beliefs, in an attempt to recruit people closer to the mainstream. They tried the same during anti-vax, the same with trans people issues. This is their way of operating - trying to pretend they're on your side.
Criticizing the welcome to country does not make someone a neo-nazi. Obviously not! In fact, even progressives are able to criticise it, I know some who do. The problem is that you went out of your way to trivialise the literal, loud-and-proud neo-nazis engaging in nazi propaganda, as an instinctive reaction to my comment, suggesting that I'm the problem here for calling an apple an apple. You don't have to stick up for those neo-nazis in order to critisise the welcome to country. This isn't a two-sided sport, not everything is some "left-right" culture war crap.
When you suggest that there aren't real neo-nazis involved here, or that it was only one, and imply that it's ridiculous for us to point them out, you are enabling nazism, and Australia has no reason to tolerate that antisocial behaviour. So, please, don't do that again.
Seems at least one admin of this instance disagrees lol. Just had moderator status taken off me for completely unrelated subs and threatened with a ban - which is coming whenever he sees my reply - because apparently thinking that doing a “welcome to country” at an ANZAC ceremony is disrespectful to the ANZACS is a verified and official Neo-Nazi belief, even if it’s shared by millions of non-neo-Nazis, and as such is worthy of stripping moderator status and threatening a ban lol.
https://aussie.zone/comment/16252130
Disgraceful. I bet he is absolutely on board with Albo now wanting to charge anyone who boos at a welcome to country with a hate crime and send them to jail for 5 years.
I never, not once, not even remotely suggested that there was no “real neo-nazi there”. I’m not an idiot, I know there are racist fucking dipshits here. I never said there wasn’t. I said that you can’t label everyone that booed or that thought the WtC was disrespectful as a neo-Nazi, which should not be a controversial comment.
It is apparently though. Any view that a neo-Nazi has is off limits, even if they share the same view as everyone else. Thinking Albanese has been a terrible PM is probably a neo-Nazi view that’s worthy of having mod status removed and threatened to be banned, because neo-Nazis would definitely think he is a shitty PM. Better watch out you don’t criticise Albo or you’re a neo-Nazi!
Lemmy really is speed running to 2020s reddit lol. Mod the ever loving fuck out of anyone that doesn’t toe the echo chamber line, label everything you don’t agree with as “misinformation”, and just ban everyone anonymously so it doesn’t show in the mod log who did it and use the intentionally vague “trolling, bad faith, misinformation” BS reason lol.
Thought this instances was at least a bit less ideologically captured and as an Aussie one I thought it wouldn’t be censor central, but seems like certain mods have just woken from their slumber of never commenting in years and are now turning the censorship machine on. Seriously, check out their post/comment history.
The paradox of tolerance isn't a paradox when you look at it not as a hard rule, but a social contract.
If ya wanna decide the social contract, rules of order or just plain human niceties don't apply....well then they don't apply to you, either. The ol' absolute freedom gotcha
Nah that's legit. If you're going to have a tolerant society, you can't show that same tolerance to those who are intolerant because they are a threat to the tolerance and will eradicate you. I think it was Karl Popper? To preserve a tolerant society we have to exercise the right to not tolerate the intolerant.