156

Planning for the future - a flaw in the design of Lemmy (and Kbin) (lemmy.world)

submitted 1 year ago by TerryMathews@lemmy.world to c/lemmyworld@lemmy.world

112 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Hey all, so I've been trying to embrace the fediverse life. My background - I've been on the internet since pre-WWW, so I've seen it all.

I think there's a structural issue in the design of Lemmy, that's still correctable now but won't be if it gets much bigger. In short, I think we're federating the wrong data.

For those of you who used USENET back in the early days, when your ISP maintained a local copy of it, I think you'll pick up where I'm going with this fairly quickly. But I know there aren't a ton of us graybeards so I'll try to explain in detail.

As it's currently implemented, the Fediverse allows for multiple identically named communities to exist. I believe this is a mistake. The fediverse should have one uniquely named community instance, and part of the atomic data exchanged through the federation should include the instance that "owns" the community and a list of moderators. Each member server of the Fediverse should maintain an identical list of communities, based on server federation. Just like USENET of yore.

This could also be the gateway into instance transference. If the instances are more in-sync, it will be easier to transfer either a user account or a community.

This would eliminate the largest pain point/learning curve that Lemmy has vs Reddit.

Open to thought. And I'll admit this isn't fully fleshed out, it was just something I was thinking about as I was driving home from work tonight

Lemmy is good, but it could be great.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments

[-] miridius@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Unless I've misunderstood something, community names are already globally unique and multiple identically named communities cannot exist, you're just not looking at the full name.

Memes@lemmy.ml and Memes@sopuli.xyz are different names, for example.

Sometimes we ignore the part of the name after the @ if it's unambiguous, but it's still there.

[-] overzeetop@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

tl;dr: I agree with OP that the ability to have multiple, identically named, disconnected communities on different instances will be a severe detriment to the adoption of the Fediverse by the general public.

community names are already globally unique and multiple identically named communities cannot exist, you’re just not looking at the full name.

That's part of the problem. The simplest UI generally exposes the community name without the instance, !memes for example, but the backend is really !memes@lemmy.ml which is an entirely different community from !memes@sopuli.xyz. Now, that's not really a problem - memes are memes. But what about a community for Edinburgh, UK? There are already two - !Edinburgh@sh.itjust.works and !Edinburgh@feddit.uk. That's going to be an issue because if you choose one to participate in, you'll miss all of the content in the other. If you're a member of, say sopuli.xyz, you won't even know that either exist because their community search doesn't actually search all instances and might start a third. The whole idea of the Fediverse is to have a federation of instances which share information, and there is already talk of the biggest instances potentially creating a problem with the democratic ideals of the system (6 days into the reddit migration and three of the largest instances have defederated from one another). To have a thousand instances each with their own !Photography or !ManchesterUnited community dilutes the content and interaction.

I agree with OP ( I actually don't know how to link to a profile yet or I'd tag @TerryMatthews) that there should be some cross-linked mechanism to merge identically named communities across instances. There could still be detached instances - defederated content would not have their content propagated - but the content for each unique community would be co-mingled.

I would expect that moderators would be limited in scope to their own communities. So a mod from feddit.uk could block a non-instance post or user on their instance but it would be present on other instances. They could also block a local post on their instance and it would not be propagated at all. Pinned posts get a little more hairy - would every mod have a separate set of local instance pins? I would think that would need to be the case. The issue of sidebars is also an issue.

[-] dissonant@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

The ability to create multis could solve that. I could make a local Edinburgh multi, sub to both of the communities, and view them together in one feed for example.

[-] overzeetop@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago

That would definitely fix the reading side of things. As would a reader/aggregator app which allows browsing (and discovery) of all the Fediverse instances as a unified feed. It still leaves the challenge of propagating information though communities without either leaving large swaths of the community in the dark or risking multiple posts (for people who do multi./aggregate). The last programming language I can claim to have studied is Fortran (77, no less), so my hope is only that someone competent shares my concern.

[-] lotanis@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago

The "two Edinburghs" situation already existed on Reddit. You'd get slightly different "competing" subreddits. They'd have to differentiate their names a bit but it still happened.

To flip it round - there was an issue in Reddit that whoever first set up a subreddit with a given name then owned it forever. Let's say I got there first for /r/london but then I'm a twat and either create a community of horrible people or fail to build a community at all. Everyone in London who wants a city subreddit is worse off, and at best someone has to come along and make a different subreddit with a different name to fulfill the same person. Not having this single namespace with "first mover" advantage is good and democratic. And all we have to do is pay attention to the bit after the @ sign.

[-] overzeetop@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

That’s fair. Sometimes there are competing/unfriendly communities on the same topic (EliteDangerous and Elite_Dangerous sub mods hate each other with a fiery passion for…reasons). Since writing my post I’ve stumbled upon another poster suggesting a fix may be on the user side (a fediverse aggregating reader) rather than attempting to somehow weave communities together on the server end. That does mostly what’s needed (imho) without requiring any additional overhead on the instance ends.