Flippanarchy
Flippant Anarchism. A lighter take on social criticism with the aim of agitation.
Post humorous takes on capitalism and the states which prop it up. Memes, shitposting, screenshots of humorous good takes, discussions making fun of some reactionary online, it all works.
This community is anarchist-flavored. Reactionary takes won't be tolerated.
Don't take yourselves too seriously. Serious posts go to !anarchism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
Rules
-
If you post images with text, endeavour to provide the alt-text
-
If the image is a crosspost from an OP, Provide the source.
-
Absolutely no right-wing jokes. This includes "Anarcho"-Capitalist concepts.
-
Absolutely no redfash jokes. This includes anything that props up the capitalist ruling classes pretending to be communists.
-
No bigotry whatsoever. See instance rules.
-
This is an anarchist comm. You don't have to be an anarchist to post, but you should at least understand what anarchism actually is. We're not here to educate you.
-
No shaming people for being anti-electoralism. This should be obvious from the above point but apparently we need to make it obvious to the turbolibs who can't control themselves. You have the rest of lemmy to moralize.
Join the matrix room for some real-time discussion.
view the rest of the comments
You think I'm a pompous liberal dickhead. I think you're a sincere idiot who's helping the left shoot itself in the foot.
We both want the left to win. Our ideas of how that happens differs. So long as we're at each other's throats instead of arm in arm against the real enemy, they win.
Can we please cut this bourgeois ideological crap and get back to materialist dialectics?
Do you think that's what you're doing?
From skimming your comment, I believe you said you could cite theory to back up your "vote blue no matter who" position. So please do so. I don't believe I've ever seen anyone do this, it's always just, "it's obvious" while shutting down any closer examination. Because it is just passively absorbed, unexamined, ruling class ideology.
For the record, my position is largely inspired by Lenin's "Should We Participate in Bourgeois Parliaments?"
Ooh, there are some good bits in there:
.
.
.
.
.
Sounds like exactly what I'm on about. Voting is a useful tool, use it intelligently.
So, you don't have any theory to support your position, and have instead chosen to take bits of mine out of context to pretend they mean something completely different.
Yes, Lenin argued for participation in bourgeois parliaments... in a revolutionary communist party. Which the Democratic Party is very much not.
Huh! So, if we were to pretend that he's talking about something like the Democratic party, then in that case he says we should direct "the most keen, ruthless, and uncompromising criticism" at any leader in said party that is unwilling to use their position "in a revolutionary and communist manner," and that they should "of course" be dismissed and replaced. It is impossible to read these words in good faith and think that he's supporting your "blue no matter who" position.
Lenin's position was, as his positions often were, nuanced, striking a balance between competing ideas. In this case, he is fiercely critical of both complete absentation of the left communists and anarchists, and of opportunism and tailism of the social democrats. You've chosen to focus singularly on his criticism of absentation (which tbf is something he focuses on here), as if abstaining from the election was my position, which it isn't. My position is participation in bourgeois parliaments through a revolutionary communist party with the aim of prioritizing non-electoral strategies, i.e. the thing that he very clearly and explicitly argues for in place of absentation.
Yours? Our theory, comrade. And I'm not a chapter-and-verse kinda guy. That's not very Marxist. Marxism is explicitly founded upon the Hegelian dialectic: thesis, antithesis, synthesis. I don't read theory to prop up my views with the authority of century-old quotations. I read theory to analyze the argument, and synthesize it into my general worldview. Good ideas aren't good because you like the person that said them, they stand up by the virtue of their reasoning.
Heck, this might have been the exact thing I read to bring me to this particular position. Who knows, I read a lot.
And not sure how I could've taken anything out of context, I literally copied and pasted direct quotes.
That's not what this piece says though. If you want to make that point, you should have used a piece that supports it. This piece very specifically says, in what I consider the most crucial words of the whole thing:
The American people do not have the class consciousness or preparedness to support a revolutionary communist party. A sober evaluation of the actual state demonstrates that quite clearly.
Of course! Direct your criticisms to the leaders of the Democratic party, not my parliamentary activities. Note, however, that he doesn't say that trying to dismiss and replace them is somehow valuable in itself, and you'd really need to massage the context to endorse doing so when it results in an even more uncommunist replacement.
An admirable twit and true to the Hegelian influence.
Then you probably should have chosen a different tract. This one is pretty clear: don't delude yourself with your ideologies, don't judge the whole population by the communist vanguard, suit your actions to your circumstances.
Until, by a sober evaluation, we can say that the American people have the class-consciousness and preparedness for a revolutionary communist party, trying to force one at the expense of greater losses is not suitable.
You've never heard of proof-texting?
This is literally the exact opposite of his position. You're saying that you shouldn't run as a communist until the proletariat is sufficiently radicalized, when Lenin is saying that you should run as a communist specifically in order to radicalize the proletariat when they are not radicalized. His whole argument is that it is because the proletariat is not radicalized that participation in bourgeois politics is worthwhile.
Winning elections is not the point, the point is promoting the message, and if you happen to win a couple elections along the way and get a few representatives in, cool, that can be useful, but that always takes a backseat to other priorities:
action by the masses, a big strike, for instance, is more important than parliamentary activity at all times, and not only during a revolution or in a revolutionary situation.
Lenin even makes reference to still persuing a revolutionary communist party, not only when it is not electorally viable, but when it is actually illegal:
But in conditions in which it is often necessary to hide “leaders” underground, the evolution of good “leaders”, reliable, tested and authoritative, is a very difficult matter...
The part immediately proceeding what you quoted reads:
You must not sink to the level of the masses, to the level of the backward strata of the class. That is incontestable. You must tell them the bitter truth. You are duty bound to call their bourgeois-democratic and parliamentary prejudices what they are—prejudices.
The position that you are arguing for, that communists should adopt reactionary/liberal stances to appease or ingratiate ourselves to a reactionary/liberal population, is known as tailism. The person who coined that term is the same person who wrote this text, Lenin, and he coined it while harshly criticizing it, it is absolutely not his position by any stretch of the imagination. We must "follow the actual state of class-consciousness" only in the sense that we must be aware of it, and plan around it, not in the sense of following their lead. Being aware that most people are not prepared for armed revolution, he says, we should participate in bourgeois electoralism because that is the spectacle they are invested in, and the way in which we should participate is as part of a revolutionary communist party uncompromisingly "telling them the bitter truth" and ultimately trying to turn people away from such processes altogether.
Naturally, if a party can not or will not replace a leader within the party who refuses to persues the supposed revolutionary communist goals of the party, then you should consider whether the party is actually committed to those goals or whether it's time to start a new party or move to another one that does. Obviously, if replacing an anti-communist leader means someone even more anti-communist will lead the party, then you are not in a communist party and it is time to leave.
He is very clearly talking about leaders within the party, who are always within the party's power to replace, with whoever they choose, relatively effortlessly. The situation you describe is a contradiction, you've already messed up if you're choosing the lesser evil anticommunist to lead your party or if you can only "try" to replace an anti-communist leader, and obviously this has nothing to do with "voting Democrat to stop the Republicans" as you're attempting to project onto it, since it's in the context of internal workings of a revolutionary communist party, not a competition between two bourgeois parties.
And you genuinely, truly believe that that is consistent with Vladimir Lenin's position in this text?
I weep for our education system.
Again, I don't really prop my arguments up on the reputation of long dead men, the whole prospect feels pretty cringey and authoritarian just in principle. I don't see why you would want to base contemporary political strategy on the ideals of a man who died 100 years ago, in a very different country with different material conditions.
You know what Lenin had to say about furthering communism under the threat of fascism? Nothing! He died before fascism became a thing, or Fox News, or Facebook algorithm pipelines. He had no way of conceptualizing the scope of propaganda in the modern world.
Why is he sacrosanct when developing strategy? His USSR never even got to the communist part. It lasted 70 years before being divided up by oligarchs into even more egregious capitalism. Not only are his ideas outdated, they apparently weren't all that resilient either.
That's quite the pivot! You were just arguing that I should listen to him because he supported your position, the second that it's established that he did not, I should throw out everything he said.
It's like, at the center of your universe is the concept, "You should vote for Harris" and all other propositions rotate around that immovable point. Lenin can be worth listening to, as long as that point doesn't move, the moment he tries to move that point, he's out. This is entirely backwards from how it's supposed to work, voting for Harris is a conclusion that is predicated on a particular set of premises, the premises are supposed to be the rock solid foundation, and the conclusion (whatever it may be) the least stable and most flexible point.
I do not blindly follow whatever Lenin says. I think it's important, however, to understand what he did and did not argue for, factually speaking, as is true of any other theorist. In this case, it's just that I find his arguments compelling and think his strategy makes sense, even in present conditions - I do not necessarily envision an open revolution in the same vein of conventional warfare, but I would argue the same principles apply if "revolutionary action" looks less like that and more like mass strikes.
Earlier, you claimed to be able to support your position theoretically. You still haven't provided any, and, having failed to piggyback off my own source, you now seem to be arguing against the relevance of theory altogether. Again, premises flipping from on to the other, revolving around a central conclusion.
I believe if you actually read what I wrote, I did not. I believe my exact words were "Ooh, there are some interesting bits in there".
In fact, I then went on to specify that I don't prop my arguments up of the reputations of dead men. I found it funny that your own snippet of theory was substantially more supportive of my position, but I did not, and do not base my arguments on theory citations. They are based on reason, informed by history and theory, but not blindly.
Correct. My rock solid point is not "Demonstrate ideological purity and ability to cite theory" as yours seems to be. My foundation is "Achieve stable, enduring communism as quickly and bloodlessly as possible". I work backwards from there, broadly to socialism, then to market socialism, then to unions, etc., until I get to the present day.
We're not going to have a successful communist revolution tomorrow, nor a socialist one. That means part of that pathway involves voting strategically to secure the most favorable conditions possible for the development of the vanguard. In the 2024 election, that meant keeping the Project 2025 fascists out of office. The only way to do that, at that particular time, was to vote Harris.
That doesn't have anything to do with my actions outside of the ballot box, except in that it helps increase the likelihood of success of those actions.
I belive you. Your foundation is demonstrating ideological purity, so if Lenin says something detrimental to that purity, you are compelled to selectively choose only that which supports purity.
He said himself in this very text that conditions in Russia were not the same as in Western Europe and America. That is proof enough that even if you consider his strategy well suited to the task in Russia, which given the eventual corruption and dissolution of the USSR is itself a very tenuous claim, we should question the efficacy of this strategy in America and Western Europe.
I could, but again I don't think it's a valuable pursuit. I can also belch the alphabet. My basis is reason, not theory. An argument isn't "valid" because a famous theorist wrote it down 100 years ago. I never claimed otherwise, there is no flip, you just don't understand the concept of favoring reason to theory.
And that's why the whole ML movement I see here is doomed. Everyone who questions your favored theorist is a "liberal" and must be shamed. You've elevated ancient theory to sacred scripture, and perverted the rational pursuit for political efficacy into a religious devotion. As Lenin said:
I regularly interact with the general public, offline. I can say with utmost confidence that I am staunchly to the left of, at minimum, 99% of the population. If I'm too far right to you, you have no people. A handful of terminally online theory-junkies, sure, but nothing remotely close to the consent of the masses necessary for even non-violent revolutionary tactics (a general strike, for example).
We need time to educate them. That's a lot easier to do when fascists aren't disappearing our organizers to Salvadorian death camps. Lenin's strategy was tailored to material conditions in Russia in the early 20th century, before the advent of fascism and modern propaganda, before billionaires (there was one, John D. Rockefeller, but he was the only one and he barely edged over the $1B mark at the end of Lenin's life). And, again, his strategies weren't even effective at securing stable communism. It was never actually communism, and it destabilized in under a century. So not only are his techniques unsuitable for modern use, they weren't even effective at the time.
The world he strategized in was fundamentally different from ours in many ways. Deifying century-dead thinkers is like using a steam engine repair manual to try to remove a virus from your computer. So long as your methods remain buried in the past, so will any leftist success. Adapt or die.
Which, to be clear, was not even remotely true, as I demonstrated. No that I have spent time demonstrating that you are objectively wrong about Lenin's historical positions, you are now accusing me of blinding following them, when all I've done is clarify what they are, against you absurd attempts to misconstrue and twist around his words.
Literally every word of this is just baseless nonsense, over and over again.
I cited Lenin for a couple specific purposes, first, to establish that my positions are part of a broader leftist intellectual tradition, second, because I personally find his arguments compelling and relevant.
For the third time, I will point out that you claimed that you could support your positions with theory, which you have not done, and have now flipped to saying that theory is irrelevant, accusing me of "blindly following it" merely for citing and referencing it - after you asked me to, by the way! When I said that I had read theory and could defend my positions in the context of it, you called me out for not having done so, when I then did so, you called me out for doing so. It's absolutely absurd.
It's obvious that you are no operating on any kind of rational basis, but rather blind loyalty to the Democratic party.
Yes, the leftist tradition of deifying outdated theorists. That is a tradition I'm happy to abandon.
I could. Gramsci, Bernstein, Kautsky, and every other shade of reformist who quite correctly pointed out the dangers of premature revolution, including the inherent instability and susceptibility to dictatorship, and highlighted the necessity to favorably shift the cultural hegemony before trying direct political action. I don't need to cite theory for this, history shows it quite clearly. But I could, I just don't think appeals to authority are reasonable arguments.
If you find the arguments, suited to a population fresh from revolution in transitional parliamentary government less than 5 years old, to be compelling strategy for a deeply propagandized population in an established 250 year old parliamentary government, you're not suited to disseminate strategic opinions. You're better suited to academia, where you can opine about historical theories with other theory-junkies.
But hey, keep trying to fix your computer with steam engine manuals. I'm sure alienating the leftists who try to save you, and everyone else, from your myopic ideological mistakes will shift the American cultural hegemony to revolution. Who cares about dialectics anyway?
I suppose that virtually every academic or scientific paper in history is guilty of "deification" because they cite other works. I guess I'm "deifying" you too, because I've quoted things you've said.
Nothing I believe is on the basis of, "because Lenin said so." Nor do I believe in blindly applying his strategies regardless of material conditions. These are entirely baseless accusations, and there is nothing I've said that you can point to as evidence of them. I agree with Lenin's perspective to an extent, from a reasoned, critical position. But it seems that anything short of blind rejection of everything he said counts as "blindly following" by your standards.
We haven't even really begun to examine the questions of whether his ideas were correct or whether they are applicable to today. All I've done is present what they are and refuted your nonsensical attempts to twist his words around.
Uh, what? That's a bad joke, right? You know that's not how academic citations work, right? Forget what I said about academia, that's not for you either.
Mr. "Everyone who criticizes me is a liberal" is against base**less accusations now? Spare me your crocodile tears.
You know the neat thing about text based conversations is you can go back for receipts, right?
And you keep saying I pressed you on theory, which is completely backwards. That was all you champ.
For someone who claims to read so much theory, your reading comprehension is not good.
But we've passed the point that I feel like entertaining your bad faith projection. We're done here.
Great! I knew this wasn't going to go anywhere from the start, as I said. You haven't said a single thing worth reading in this whole conversation, or in any other comment I've ever seen you make. So this seems like a good a time as any to simply block you.