Objection

Consider also that there were people in the Red Army that were previously in the White Army.

Being in the Red Army is not equivalent to being a Senator. You don't fuck up and then go into politics and seek out a leadership position as a "second chance." That's not forgiveness, that's just failing to hold politicians accountable and letting powerful people get away with shit.

Humility is a requirement of forgiveness and seeking public office is in complete contradiction to that. You want forgiveness, go volunteer at a soup kitchen or some shit. Don't fuck up and then immediately go, "I think I deserve to be invested with power."

They absolutely are not.

I understand that you're not familiar with the symbol and that this is your first time encountering it. I can easily believe that a drunk soldier in the same boat wouldn't know the difference either. But the design of the Nazi version is distinct and recognizable, if you've seen it. The tattoo was indisputably a totenkopf and not a pirate flag. Nobody who knows what a totenkopf is would get the two confused.

The part that I take issue with is when you go around saying that nobody knew what a totenkopf was before this and therefore all criticism about it must be in bad faith. You're just projecting your own knowledge and experiences onto every other person on the planet. I knew what a totenkopf was years before this and my impression of the symbol has nothing to do with Platner, or like, Maine in general. Platner could be the greatest or the worst person in the world and it wouldn't change what I think about the symbol at all. My knowledge about and impression of the totenkopf is based on it being plastered on Nazi uniforms, and used by Neo-Nazis, not a controversy over some random Senate candidate.

It's just ridiculous that you won't even accept the possibility that people you disagree with are just wrong, that's not enough, they have to be actively malevolent and dishonest. Even in the most generous possible read of Platner, there are still red flags that would cause some people to have genuine concerns and doubts about him.

Because, no matter how many times you repeat "it's just a pirate symbol!!!" (how many times in this thread?) that's doesn't make it true:

It's not just a "skull and crossbones," it's the specific design that was used by the Nazis and is known as a hate symbol.

I don't even think getting the tattoo is disqualifying, but the way he handled it was sus. Even if it was a stupid, drunk decision, it's likely he figured it out at some point afterwards, and only got it covered up when it started hurting the campaign.

The part about being a Blackwater merc though, that's pretty hard to look past. "Killer for hire turned politician." One way or another, it's a sad state of affairs that this is where we're at.

The claim that WoodScientist is trying to argue is not just that he didn't know what it meant when he got it (and that it's fine he left it after learning about it), but also that anyone criticizing the tattoo must be disingenuous, because nobody knew what the symbol was before this controversy. In fact, lots of people knew what it was, some from that sketch, some from movies and stuff, some from keeping an eye on far-right groups, etc. If anything, the only thing I'm learning about from this controversy is just how many people don't recognize it.

I 100% accept that people can change, but that doesn't mean I trust them in positions of power. I don't know what this weird parasocial thing is where I'm expected to never hold politicians accountable for anything.

The only people with obsessive knowledge of SS iconography are WW2 buffs, neonazis, and neonazi WW2 buffs.

And those of us who are high enough on their lists to spend five minutes learning to identify common symbols that indicate danger.

I think you may be the actual Nazi here.

Seriously? This is the worst thing about y'all. You simply won't allow for the possibility that criticism is even genuine, let alone legitimate. Every single time someone raises a potential concern, it's always, "You're the real Nazi!" or "You're a DNC bot!" or whatnot. As if there isn't a single person on the planet who gets worried when a guy with a Nazi tattoo and a history as a mercenary is running for office.

You can argue that Platner is a lesser evil or whatever, but this, "If you have a problem with a totenkopf tattoo, you're the real Nazi" shit is just straight up cult behavior.

You're right, I misremembered it. However there have been calls for France to repay the reparations which it still has not done, and Aristide was overthrown in a foreign-backed coup after calling for that.

I support a multipolar world order, in a large part because I believe that's what's best for developing/non-aligned countries. Since the US has been the sole superpower and has sought to establish itself as the sole global hegemon, using military aggression to expand its influence and power, it seems pretty natural to oppose it and support competition.

If the US and China are both major powers, then non-aligned countries have the freedom to choose who they do business with, which means they have some ability to bargain for a better deal. If the US or the West were the only game in town, then you'd have to accept whatever they offer, or be shut out of the global marketplace. Furthermore, many of the natural resources of poor countries remain in the hands of the Western powers that seized them through force during colonialism (Haiti is still paying reparations to France for freeing the slaves, for example). Ending this system of neocolonialism is a priority, and that requires an alternative economic bloc.

I don't believe that China invests abroad just out of the kindness of their hearts, however, China has expanded its power through peaceful economic development and trade. China has not been at war with anyone for decades, in contrast to the US which has waged (and is waging) multiple wars of aggression, for the sake of seizing resources. Furthermore, the West will sometimes just decide to steal the assets of poor countries that are invested in their banks, as the did with Venezuela. When has China done this?

Even if you dislike the Chinese system, I see it as a necessity that enabled other systems to survive. The West has a specific system that they want to impose on the entire world, and if you're the only country not doing that system, you're screwed. But China is a lot more flexible, and imposes fewer conditions on domestic policy. This in turn limits the ability of the West to impose their policies, because a country can always choose to walk.

Trump is not some outlier or momentary fluke. The roots of Trumpism go far back and there are material reasons why people support him. So long as those root causes are not addressed, you should not expect Trumpism to simply go away, and the only thing US liberals want is a return to the status quo (the same status quo that brought us Trump).

When Obama was president, the same sorts of voices existed. Trump himself entered politics by supporting the "Birther" movement (a conspiracy theory saying Obama was born in Africa and not the US). The right had a complete and total unwillingness to compromise or cooperate no matter how amiable Obama tried to be. They denounced him as some gay foreign Satan-worshipping communist, and that was while he was keeping the War in Afghanistan going, bailing out the banks, and enacting healthcare reform that was originally proposed by a Republican. This whole extreme-right media sphere developed that needed constant stories to run with, no matter was actually going on.

Before that, we had George W Bush. Bush created ICE, he tortured people, he invaded multiple countries and started decades-long wars of aggression, he enacted mass surveillance which illegally targeted not only innocent Americans but also foreigners, including heads of state.

At what point does it stop being, "When will the US go back to normal?" and start being, "When will the US finally change?" Trump is more mask off, and somewhat more unhinged and unpredictable, but most of what he's done is just following existing trends where they've been heading the last 20 years or more.