this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2026
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Always has been. Don't let the "good ones" convince you that there's some redeeming quality to Christianity.
Or to any religion, for that matter
But Sikhs though. \s
I think I'm gonna start calling this the atheist equivalent of "all lives matter".
Do what you want, but the normalization of magical thinking is a net negative for society and it's wild that we just accept everyone's fairy tales as worthy of respect.
We call Christianity "Worthy of Respect" and Transness "Delusion". Even though transpeople are real and God isn't.
To be fair, while the definition of religion is essentially a contested ongoing linguistics debate, it does not necessarily require magical thinking.
Take the Satanic Temple or Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption for example.
Though still, I agree with your point about magical thinking, and as it is so commonplace as to be functionally synonymous with religion... I guess the point is largely moot.
edit: oof, I seem to have forgotten that pedantry should only be used against religion, and never in its defense. I will be sure to hand in my Atheist membership card at the next meeting.
Those examples are protest movements using the trappings of religion to attack religion, not examples of sincere religious belief detached from spirituality.
Sure, by one definition of religion. By another, they're literally religions. But more to the point, they were meant as tongue-in-cheek examples that intentionally missed the mark, to avoid getting pulled too deep into the linguistics debate over something I'd already conceded is so commonplace in religion that positing it is reasonable.
But I digress. For unambiguous examples, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanistic Judaism, and Unitarian Universalism are organized religions with congregations, clergy, rituals, and legal recognition, and they require no magical thinking of any kind. Beyond those, traditions like Theravāda Buddhism, Jainism, and Confucianism can be and are practiced without any supernatural belief, even if their classical forms include things like rebirth or ancestor veneration.
You could argue the first group are just philosophies whose adherents happen to gather for ceremony and ritual. But that brings us right back to my first point, which is that the definition is contested.
If you want to use a definition of religion that requires belief in the supernatural, go for it. But that usage isn't universal, and your reply to zarkanian functionally forced your definition onto them. To me, that undermines the pursuit of truth and honest dialogue.
I will, thanks. There's a legal definition and there's a practical definition, as with many words, and for practical purposes the difference between a religion and a philosophy is magic.
If it was only a philosophy, then you'd have a point.
I said the definition is contested, so you picked your preferred one and declared it "the practical one." Practical for whom? Ethical Culture members with clergy, congregations, and 150 years of continuous practice? Defining religion as "philosophy plus magic" and then citing that definition as your evidence is just assuming your conclusion.
You're welcome to the definition. Just notice you got there by defining the counterexamples away, not by addressing them.
Alright, let's dig into the counterexamples.
Ethical Culture, or Ethical Humanism, doesn't call itself a religion but recognizes it fills some roles parallel to religious practice. The Ethical movement started as an explicitly secular idea and has grown/split/changed over a couple hundred years. Some branches call themselves religions, some even embrace spirituality (and not just in the way Felix Adler tried to redefine it as a kind of moral drive.) Already we're in a space where we have to accept that words mean multiple things depending on context, and I'm being flippant because it seemed obvious that in this conversation it isn't useful to use the term "religion" to mean multiple things when alternatives exist. It's not "contested" there are several valid definitions but that can't be applied interchangeably. Language should facilitate the communication of ideas, not muddy it. Furthering that point is the concept of a secular religion. This started as a critique of Christianity or "any religion, for that matter" and through that it should be assumed that subsequent use of the word "religion" in the thread was the type or types that could be applied to Christianity.
Regardless, we carry on.
Humanistic Judaism is essentially the same thing as Ethical Humanism but retaining the cultural heritage and rituals of Judaism (or part of it, they aren't a monolith). They make a distinction between "religious and secular traditions" implying that secularity is explicitly nonreligious in their point of view.
Unitarian Universalists do call themselves a religion and they are not a secular movement. The belief in a "higher power" of some kind is important to their identity and they don't shy away from language like "faith" or "religious practice." It's a rejection of dogma or enforcing specific creeds and will accept pretty much anyone because they're more interested in inclusiveness than spirituality but it's a beige religion attached to cuddly social justice movement.
So yeah, I stand by what I said. For the purposes of this conversation the difference between a religion and a philosophy is magic.
You just conceded my original point. "Several valid definitions that can't be applied interchangeably" is... what contested means. All I claimed at the start was that religion doesn't necessarily require magical thinking. So if several valid definitions exist and some of them cover nonmagical traditions, then the "necessarily" is dead.
Which gets at the actual problem here. Zarkanian made a point, you swapped in your own narrower definition of religion, and then argued against that instead. That's a strawman. And "assume we meant the Christianity type" doesn't fix that, because the thread explicitly widened to "any religion, for that matter." You can't broaden the scope to every religion and then retroactively narrow the definition when the counterexamples show up.
Also, some of this is just wrong. Ethical Culture was founded by Adler as a religion, and they literally went to court to be recognized as one (Washington Ethical Society v. DC, 1957). So "doesn't call itself a religion" is an interesting claim. And you've got UU backwards. They're creedless on purpose, humanism is one of their six official sources, and a big chunk of their members are atheists. Belief in a higher power isn't "important to their identity," it's explicitly optional. That's kind of their whole thing.
Everything you've argued follows from picking a definition, applying it to someone who wasn't using it, and treating the mismatch as their mistake. That's not a disagreement about religion. It's a disagreement you manufactured. You may not like religions, but you sure debate like you're in one.
That's not what contested means. The definition of "theory" is not contested because it means different things in different uses. You're still probably right about "religion" here because even in what should be the same use we're arguing particulars, but that some definitions apply and some don't isn't scoring you the point.
Second, I can't know because they haven't followed up, but I'm pretty sure I'm using the word the same way Phoenixz was and Zarkanian is who swapped in their definition to fit their interpretation of Satanism. I am confident that, in any case, Phoenixz did not mean "every possible definition of religion, up to and including metaphor and hyperbole."
Fighting for the legal protections that exist for religions does imply mean sincere religious belief, it can easily be pragmatism. (Further, Adler was doing this 150 years ago with the vocabulary that was available. And he knew he was so limited. "The word 'spiritual' becomes a synonym of muddy thought and misty emotionalism. If there were another word in the language to take its place, it would be well to use it. But there is not.") I could well be wrong in this case. But I don't think I'm wrong about UU, at least in general terms. The embracing of (almost) all beliefs and philosophies means that various forms of spirituality are a common thread that weaves through much of their identity. Or less charitably, accepting nonsense is supporting nonsense.
You can get rid of that "may." I'm openly and unapologetically hostile to all forms of magical thinking, religion-excused ignorance and abuse, and the protected status as "cultural default" theistic thought and structure has enjoyed forever (and especially the Abrahamic faiths in the modern world). It's fucking weird and I'm tired of pretending it isn't.
What gives you the right to tell Satanists that they aren't sincere? And no, TST does not "attack religion". We defend Satanism.
The gall, the audacity that I was born with. I don't doubt your sincere support of the Fundamental Tenets, but the point of using Satan as an icon is specifically to rile up Christians and it exists to shield people from Christian Fundamentalism (and religious-based persecution and abuse more broadly, but most of that is Christian-flavored where the Satanic Temple is active)
Oh, good grief. No, I'm not interested in "riling up Christians", either! In fact, I would prefer to get along with Christians. Almost 100% of my religious practice I've been alone or with other Satanists and zero Christians.
Then stop appropriating the iconography of their central villain. (Christians don't know that Baphomet and The Devil are different) It seems like you're ignorant of the history of the Temple, which is only 14 years old, and it very literally was founded to mock Christian extremist activists like Rick Scott. That's the whole bit.
I'm well aware of the history of the Temple. I've read Joseph Laycock's Speak of the Devil, which is a chronicle of TST's first decade. I recommend that you read it as well, because you have a lot of misapprehensions about TST.
It's not appropriation. Satan as a heroic figure also has a history that goes back hundreds of years into Romantic literature.
Besides, Christians didn't invent Satan. He came out of Jewish mythology.
You can be religious without magical thinking.
Give an example.
The Satanic Temple.
As I told the other guy: not actually a religion, it's a protest group using the legal protections of religion in the United States to fight Christian overreach.
I know because I'm part of a TST congregation. We have ministers, we have rituals, we have holidays. We have tax-exempt status like any other church. If you ask anybody in my congregation, they'll say the same thing: our religion is Satanism and TST is our church.
No you can't, because all religion is is "Maybe God will reward me if I starve myself."
Buddhism? Satanism? Wicca? Any flavor of paganism?
I was Buddhist for awhile, but I could never get meditation to actually work. People think Buddhism's just atheism with breathing exercises. Naw there's an entire cosmology with Gods and being reincarnated as Ghosts, and shit. It all boiled down to "Maybe the universe will reward me if I meditate enough."
Was New Age for awhile too, but same problem... "Maybe I'll develop powers if I stay open minded enough"
It's all bullshit, all faiths
Organized religion is just a tool utilized to control people. Nothing more.
They didn't even say "organized religion". They said "all religion".
I made a catholic friend who had me convinced that maybe there was something to Christianity. It was an illusion, there is no God, and all religion does is convince you to hurt yourself and others under the delusion that an imaginary invisible man in the sky will make it up to you in the afterlife.
But the truth is there is no afterlife, neurology has completely debunked the idea of a soul.
Sucks, I really wish there was an afterlife, but this is all we get. All spirituality is, is longing for an afterlife where you get a spirit guide and super powers...... It's nonsense, you wait for it and you'll waste your only time with which you will ever get to exist.
I miss the concept of an afterlife the most, when some shithead like Lindsey Graham assumes room temperature. I would love to feel the satisfaction of knowing they are being dragged to Hell in terror, but alas, I know that isn't the case.
I'm still pleased they are gone, and can't do any more destruction, but my schadenfreude is somewhat limited.
Part of me feels like an afterlife should exist, but I know that's just cope.
Literally could be said about Islam. But then leftists gonna freak out lol.
It's weird how leftists are like "Hey, can you stop bombing LITERAL CHILDREN please?" and y'all somehow translate that into a rabid support for Islam when their religion has literally nothing to do with the request.
Not Leftists, just normal, empathetic people. You don't have to be a Leftist to recognize genocide, atrocities, and war crimes. Being protective of your fellow humans shouldn't be framed as a Left or Right thing, just normal behavior.
You're stupid
Don't breed
I mean I'm not the least bit fond of any religion, but a lot of Americans are into the prosperity gospel stuff that has little to do with the other Christian cults like Catholicism or Lutheranism.
The whole "God rewards good people with health and wealth" thing is an American concept, not a Christian concept.
What about Job, who was rewarded with 7 times what he lost because he trusted god? Including his children. The old ones were still dead, but he was blessed with new ones.
Christianity is rotten from beginning to end. It's significantly worse than most people seem to realize.
That's just a story to make people not lose hope when the government or some Sociopathic Oligarch takes everything from them. It teaches weak- minded people to accept being screwed over because God will reward you as compensation for your loss.
Except God won't reward you, that was just some story you were sold so you would just accept your inevitable screwing over without organizing a revolution.
God isn't coming to save you. We have to do that ourselves. Also: He isn't on their side either, no matter how much they insist he is. They lie.
The bible is an inconsistent mess that can "justify" whatever someone thinks god wants.
Christianity is a death cult. Baseless claims should not be accepted or tolerated, all life depends on the reality that defines us. Magical thinking is deadly. Humanity must mature or it will self-destruct.
In other words, please stop defending christianity at all. They'll kill you and tell everyone you deserved it. They'll go through the whole narcissist's prayer over your corpse: we didn't do it; if we did, it wasn't that bad; if it was, you brought it on yourself.
Take a stand for truth and life. Thank you.
Christianity is more than a just a Death Cult. Death is a normal part of life, but Christianity's core beliefs worship Torture, Human Sacrifice, Cannibalism, Violent Imaginary Friends that direct your every move, Mass Murder, the comstant threat of an eternity of fiery torture, and Zombies. Their actual logo is a human sacrifice on an ancient torture device. It also has an insatiable need for money. No matter how much it collects, it is NEVER enough, and always needs MORE. Much more.
Christianity isn't a Death Cult, it's a Horror Cult.
Imagine if someone knocked on your front door, and pitched Christianity from that perspective? They'd get rounded up by the cops pretty quickly.
Give it a rest, there's no redeeming qualities to Christianity. I went down that path too, thinking "Oh maybe it's beneficial if you do it the right way." or "Maybe it isn't so abhorrent if you interpret it correctly."
There's no God, the faster you accept it the better off you'll be.