this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2025
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Art

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For all cultures, the first true art form is architecture. For Western culture, the upward-reaching cathedrals of the Middle Ages were inspired by the forests of Northern Europe.

The prime symbol of Western culture is the perception of infinite space — a yearning to reach out of the darkness of the trees to the light beyond.

Architecture is the most immediate expression of a culture's "world-feeling," and all other art forms then spring out from it.

Notice how sculptures of saints were originally attached to the churches, but later stepped out of the architecture to stand on their own feet.

Likewise, fresco paintings became detached from the walls as standalone oil paintings, and even classical music came from Gregorian chant, for which the cathedral was designed to carry and amplify.

Even western drama came from religious ceremonies (Spengler talks about how western drama is confessional in nature).

Spengler says this is because all art forms (and all non-natural expressions of life) originate from religion. They may separate themselves physically from the church over time, but are still fundamentally tied to that metaphysical expression.

You cannot define individual art forms because they all blend into each other. Sculpture, painting, and music are merely words, and they are nothing without the prime urge that created them. This is why to define what art is you have to extract the cultural form, or the "inner form-language".

The artists of the present (in the Western culture) aren't really engaged in "art" at all, but merely a kind of craftsmanship. Today’s art lacks the spontaneity and necessity of the word-feeling that birthed the culture’s artistic expression, and this is a natural evolution of all civilizations:

"Of great painting or great music there can no longer be, for Western people, any question. Their architectural possibilities have been exhausted these hundred years. Only extensive possibilities are left to them."

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[–] JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social 4 points 1 week ago (2 children)

Wow, there's a lot to grapple with, there.

the upward-reaching cathedrals of the Middle Ages were inspired by the forests of Northern Europe.

I'd argue that at some level, they were also inspired by very special caves, like Lascaux, Altamira, and Bhimbetka, used by their ancestors quite possibly for religious ceremonies. The 'wombs of the world,' so to speak, which transported community members in to a dark, tall, sacred place, for sacred purposes.

Spengler says this is because all art forms (and all non-natural expressions of life) originate from religion.

This reminds me of what Joseph Campbell has said about the role of artists, which was to be counterparts of priests and holy men. That is, interpreters of hidden forces of nature, expressed through the currency of their culture.

He also remarked that the tallest object in the area tended to represent the most important thing to the local peoples. So, trees representing nature, later churches representing religion, and finally, office buildings representing lucre. When collapse finally finishes us off, I suppose the dead hulks of tall buildings will be a fitting symbol, indeed.

“Of great painting or great music there can no longer be, for Western people, any question. Their architectural possibilities have been exhausted these hundred years. Only extensive possibilities are left to them.”

That's a little too cynical and sweeping for my liking. Music has notably undergone a series of revolutions over the last 100yrs or so, altho indeed, one can certainly see it stagnating badly in certain popular areas, these days. There have even been some pretty extensive and technical articles and commentary pointing out the hows and whys. As for art... yeah, that's interesting. I guess we could say it's more about technique and style trained upon the extremely odd lives that we moderns live, far more than about a 'world-feeling.'

[–] yakko@feddit.uk 6 points 1 week ago

It's a rare opinion that makes me not care at all whether I agree or disagree, but instead I just enjoy chewing on it for a while. I feel it's best to hold his ideas lightly, but I want to hold them all the same.

[–] SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Oh you have no clue how much I love caves in all artforms. (Or maybe you do, I spend a day posting all about it)

Damn adding the Joseph Campbell idea there is bloody brilliant.

I have far too much to say about all three of the things you talked about. Man we should do some conversation posts on this comm sometime soon. With very specific ppints instead of vague ideas.

[–] JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Such convos sound fun, but would generally have to be a bit plodding in nature, given my health.

No, I didn't know about your relationship with caves. I still tend to bounce between the FV and Reddit, missing some days here.

Me, I had good, fun experiences with big caves in the American South, when I was a lad. Sure, they were touristy in nature, using colorful banks of lights to highlight various natural formations, but they also felt surprisingly homey to me. Later, I was on a cross-country trip with a GF, and had the opportunity to tour another cave in the American SW. Unfortunately, the proprietors had gone for a cheesy, comedy-style presentation, which included comic mannequin scenes and similar bullshit. I felt it deeply disrespectful to the natural beauty of the place, and we wound up storming out and getting a refund. The guide was astounded, but I guess that speaks to the character of their usual customers.

Did you ever read Tom Sawyer? It has a lot of great plot devoted to the local cave.

[–] SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Love ya buddy. Get well soon ❤️

Ew not the other place 😞.

OK both of your cave experiences are pretty amazing for different reasons lol.

Havent read Tom Sawyer yet unfortunately.

[–] JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social 1 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Thanks, but it's a lifelong health issue, CFS/ME. :-/

Yeah I know, unfortunately they still have a lot of various subs and useful posters that just haven't made it to the FV yet.

[–] SnokenKeekaGuard@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Well take care mate.

And yeah I get the need to keep an account on the other site.

[–] JohnnyEnzyme@piefed.social 1 points 6 days ago

I really like you. We'll do our thing and have some fun, for as long as I last. :D