this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2025

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I was recently reminded how much I fucking hate Plato's Republic (media.piefed.social)

submitted 6 days ago by PugJesus@piefed.social to c/historymemes@piefed.social

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[–] bobo@lemmy.ml 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

I don't think there's any 'compromise' about it. He doesn't come off as having anything in the way of a 'modern' view of liberty and individuality, and seems to have little interest in portraying himself as such;

Individuality? Definitely not in the western way of thinking. Liberty? He did make men and women equal in the hypothetical society, while living in a highly patriarchal one. And the social mobility doesn't depend on who you were born to. Also there are no slaves.

only his reputation as a titan of philosophy makes people reluctant to ascribe the clearly oligarchic views he's expressing to him.

The theoretical society is aristocratic in the literal meaning of the word - rule of the best. There are distinct classes, but every class is comprised of only the people who are best suited for that task.

This isn't all that unusual for his time period. But that makes it all the more important to acknowledge.

I'd say it's overall quite unusual, utopic, and based on a long history of disappointment. Democracy was on its last legs and killed his teacher, an oligarchy he had an influence in was corrupt and murderously greedy, and tyranny got him enslaved for trying to teach an heir basic human decency.

Plato's Republic boils down to "If we educated our oligarchs and told them to be really strict with themselves (and especially the filthy poors), Justice Will Win In The End"

The ruling class aren't oligarchs, and are in fact the filthy poors when compared to the working class. It's basically a society governed by monks with extremely strict rules and selection criteria.

I think that idea comes from an earlier form of Athenian democracy that involved a lottery to form an assembly. The idea was to prevent people who want to rule from ruling, and instead make it a chore that had to be done for the good of the community.

The working class are free to obtain all of the personal wealth they can, but they're disallowed from any involvement in ruling or enforcement. And considering your stance on oligarchy, you agree with him that the greedy shouldn't be involved in governing.

And if I remember correctly the founding myth warns that the society will fall apart if the greedy take control.

For a more modern example, you can look at any technocracy or Vanguardist regime of the 20th century and judge for yourself if a self-selecting caste of men educated in either practical matters (largely the former) or the humanities (largely the latter) with a clear intention of reconstructing society in their own image and with significant restrictions on the accumulation of personal property have made any exceptional progress towards a just society - or if they've done the exact opposite.

What did the myth warn about?

None of those had a system to completely remove all personal property from the government and enforcement. If those people are living better than the working class - you fucked up.

IMO that's the lesson of the metaphor, if your decisioning is influenced by personal gain or desires, it is not just. Only what is best for overall harmony is just.

[–] ulterno@programming.dev 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

There are distinct classes, but every class is compromised of only the people who are best suited for that task.

"comprised".
It would be a waste, not to fix it.

[–] bobo@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 days ago

Fixed, thanks.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 1 points 5 days ago

Liberty? He did make men and women equal in the hypothetical society, while living in a highly patriarchal one.

... making men and women equal isn't liberty. Liberty and equality are not synonyms. An equal society is not necessarily a free one.

And the social mobility doesn’t depend on who you were born to.

... the entire system is explicitly predicated on hereditary inheritance of position, with only occasional 'promotion' or 'demotion' to another caste - and abolishing marriage and private sexual relations to, again, explicitly and in a manner that is compared to breeding livestock for the best possible qualities, a system of eugenic state lottery breeding for the ruling caste.

... did you even fucking read the Republic?

Also there are no slaves.

There are no Greek slaves, foreign slaves are approved of and slavery is referenced as part of the society in several places.

Jesus fucking Christ.

The theoretical society is aristocratic in the literal meaning of the word - rule of the best. There are distinct classes, but every class is compromised of only the people who are best suited for that task.

It's also a mostly-closed hereditary caste of rulers who hold all power. So the theoretical society is aristocratic in all fucking meanings of the word.

I’d say it’s overall quite unusual, utopic, and based on a long history of disappointment.

... no, support for oligarchy is one of the most common stances of surviving ancient writers.

The ruling class aren’t oligarchs, and are in fact the filthy poors when compared to the working class. It’s basically a society governed by monks with extremely strict rules and selection criteria.

"It's not an oligarchy if we pinky promise to be responsible and that our decision to co-opt whomever we wish with no oversight is based on the best interests of the public (according to our judgement)"

Oh look, it's a Vanguard Party.

I think that idea comes from an earlier form of Athenian democracy that involved a lottery to form an assembly. The idea was to prevent people who want to rule from ruling, and instead make it a chore that had to be done for the good of the community.

That was contemporary Athenian democracy.

The working class are free to obtain all of the personal wealth they can, but they’re disallowed from any involvement in ruling or enforcement. And considering your stance on oligarchy, you agree with him that the greedy shouldn’t be involved in governing.

The working class are explicitly not free to obtain all of the personal wealth they can; the issue of the Guardians ensuring no one in the third class becomes too rich is explicitly addressed in the work.

None of those had a system to completely remove all personal property from the government and enforcement. If those people are living better than the working class - you fucked up.

Jesus Christ.

Check the early days of most ML regimes.

IMO that’s the lesson of the metaphor, if your decisioning is influenced by personal gain or desires, it is not just. Only what is best for overall harmony is just.

... there is a long section in the book that addresses that justice is happiness, and that the desire to be happy is core to the desire to be just (for those who are truly wise and knowledgeable). That's the exact opposite of disdaining personal desires.