History Memes

Plato blamed democracy for the death of Socrates. It was a sore spot for him. I think that having a ruling class that effectively made decisions democratically within their class was his compromise.

I don't think there's any 'compromise' about it. He doesn't come off as having anything in the way of a 'modern' view of liberty and individuality, and seems to have little interest in portraying himself as such; only his reputation as a titan of philosophy makes people reluctant to ascribe the clearly oligarchic views he's expressing to him.

This isn't all that unusual for his time period. But that makes it all the more important to acknowledge.

I think that he would say that there are so many more people ruled by their stomachs (base desires) than by their hearts (honor and duty) or their heads (reason) that by giving everyone a vote democracy guarantees that the state is ruled by its stomach.

Yes, he repeatedly expresses deep disdain for ordinary people and 'base' human desires. The man says "No problem with homosexuality except for the icky carnal stuff" and "Sex should be by government lottery for purposes of procreation"

His system places the responsibility of voting in the hands of those that have demonstrated that they are ruled by their heads and who have been trained to place the good of the state above all else. Restricting the vote means that the state will be ruled by its head and democratizing decisions among the ruling class defuses power to safeguards against corruption.

Okay, so how is that voting system different than any other oligarchy of the ancient world?

Plato's proposed system, heavy on concept and light on details (which is fine for a philosophical work), differs primarily in the intentional construction of the institutions of the state and a unity of purpose in their design; and in the idea that an educated exclusively-ruling class would be in some way inclined to pursue justice.

Plato's Republic boils down to "If we educated our oligarchs and told them to be really strict with themselves (and especially the filthy poors), Justice Will Win In The End"

You would think all of ten minutes talking with other educated people would disabuse him of that notion, but I guess they didn't receive the right education.

A few hundred years later and half the world away, China's Confucian bureaucratic class would begin to take form, and boy, wouldn't you know? It has a lot of similarities with the proposed structure of Plato's Republic, including the emphasis on a self-selecting non-military ruling caste dedicated solely to governance and education, especially philosophical education.

Would you like to guess as to how just it was?

For a more modern example, you can look at any technocracy or Vanguardist regime of the 20th century and judge for yourself if a self-selecting caste of men educated in either practical matters (largely the former) or the humanities (largely the latter) with a clear intention of reconstructing society in their own image and with significant restrictions on the accumulation of personal property have made any exceptional progress towards a just society - or if they've done the exact opposite.

Who watches the watchmen is a universal critique that no system seems to have a good answer to.

Aristotle and early Roman government both came up with a solution. Checks and balances.

There is no peace but deterrence. There is no deterrence without power.

But that means everyone must share in the task to some degree - everyone must be part of governance, including the farmers, including the artisans, including the soldiers. An unacceptable deviation from the notion of singular purpose espoused by Plato's Republic, wherein the people are not even to take up arms when the state is militarily outnumbered by its enemies (because it's not their job).

In Plato’s system the answer is primarily the military class.

They literally are excluded from decision-making and are restricted to the enforcement of the dictates of the Guardians. He compares them to dogs at one point.

They are responsible for upholding the laws

Yes.

and ensuring that the state is a just system.

No. That would not be their purpose, and everyone is to stay in their own narrow specialization in the idea of Plato's Republic. Having people who do not specialize in understanding justice and governance making decisions related to justice and governance would be the literal opposite of what Plato is arguing for in the dialogue.

It’s been years since I last read The Republic but if I remember correctly anyone had the right to inspect the philosophers for corruption.

Again, that would go against the entire ideal of Plato's Republic, wherein the third class of people are not to concern themselves with anything except following the dictates of the state, which is ruled by the Guardians who, alone, have the time and specialization to understand true justice.

Plato’s system was theoretical and untested by application. We also have the benefit of looking back on it with the accumulated knowledge and experience of 2,500 years. I don’t argue that it’s perfect or that there aren’t valid criticisms. I interpreted your meme to say that Plato just wanted to put himself in charge. I don’t think that particular criticism is valid.

The Obama Awarding Obama meme isn't about power, it's about self-praise.

Plato says that if only philosophers like him ruled the world, there would be possible this utopia which is massively more just than any other extant system (despite reading like a dystopia to modern, liberal, non-aristocratic eyes).

Plato's Republic is important. Plato is an important figure in the history of Western philosophy. Plato made major contributions to the development of philosophy and modern thought, including by writing the Republic in the first place.

... but the core proposal of the Republic (whether read metaphysically or literally) remains utterly broken even at a glance, the 'dialogue' absurd in the lack of pushback received by Plato's mouthpiece, and the preconceptions involved (most relevant to the meme) masturbatory even if they were correct.

Are you talking about the transition from democracy to tyranny in the Republic, or something else? I don’t know of any other accounts that could be considered in any way anarchistic.

Did you not read the Republic

The manner of life in such a State is that of democrats; there is freedom and plainness of speech, and every man does what is right in his own eyes, and has his own way of life. Hence arise the most various developments of character; the State is like a piece of embroidery of which the colours and figures are the manners of men, and there are many who, like women and children, prefer this variety to real beauty and excellence. The State is not one but many, like a bazaar at which you can buy anything. The great charm is, that you may do as you like; you may govern if you like, let it alone if you like; go to war and make peace if you feel disposed, and all quite irrespective of anybody else. When you condemn men to death they remain alive all the same; a gentleman is desired to go into exile, and he stalks about the streets like a hero; and nobody sees him or cares for him. Observe, too, how grandly Democracy sets her foot upon all our fine theories of education,—how little she cares for the training of her statesmen! The only qualification which she demands is the profession of patriotism. Such is democracy;—a pleasing, lawless, various sort of government, distributing equality to equals and unequals alike.

One day you’re a labourer highschool dropout, the next a doctor proving vaccinees cause autism, the next you’re a mathematician proving the earth is flat, and so on. It’s a bit exaggerated, but it makes sense something like that could lead into tyranny. Remember Pisistratus and the other tyrants of Athens?

Ah, yes, the poors trying to make their own decision on what to do with their own lives leads to tyranny.

You may not have read the Republic, but you certainly seem inclined towards Plato's way of oligarchic thinking.

During Plato’s life Athens went through different systems, and ended up on a direct democracy that’s paying free men to attend the assembly.

Yes, during Plato's life Athens lost a war and had a government installed by Sparta to rule over it, after which they overthrew it and restored their previous democracy.

The same free men who voted for Socrates to kill himself, and then a year later built a statue to honour him. Literally soldiers without a war, and the lowest of the free class, voting on things they know nothing about for a living.

"Literally soldiers"

... the Greek hoplite system was one of largely militia, not professionals.

"and the lowest of the free class"

Oh no

the filthy poors again

"voting on things they know nothing about for a living."

Good thing the Republic restricts voting on things they know nothing about for a living to only the oligarchic caste.

He didn’t shit on democracy for no reason, it was a dream on its last legs during his life, and it died shortly after him.

It 'died' because it was fucking conquered by the Macedonians.

Well, they couldn't be philosopher kings through him, either, because he's too damn stupid to be a reliable puppet.

His other works aren't riveting, but they are at least readable. But the man made a deal with the fucking sandman to write Das Kapital, I swear.

Congrats on your sobriety.

Star Trek. The Original Series. They end up on a planet where a virus killed all the adults, leaving only the kids, and they also die when they reach a certain age.